Wis. parents who prayed as diabetic daughter died charged

Lots of folks like these in the Philippines.

But, of course, the question is, would those folks over there resort to prayers and "faith" (no offense meant with the quotation marks), if they had the kind of medicines and medical help available for folks over here.

One pentecostal pastor over there had a daughter who became gravely ill.
Now he was a televangelist, and so on tv he said he was just praying for his daughter, and was pretty confident the Lord would heal her.

But she got more serious as time passed by.

Now, he had a lot of "fans" and they were wondering what was going to happen next.

He says maybe his daughter had some "secret sin" and so the Lord was chastising her.

Pretty sick, if you ask me, doctrines like that.

Anyway, she died.

And then some months later, the NPA (military arm of the local communist party) was in the headlines because they were kidnapping military and public officials left and right, and executing some, and he starts lambasting the NPA and said they have no power over him because he is God's servant and he is covered by the blood.

They kidnapped him.

His "fans" paid a ransom. Forgot how much.

Oh, well......

 

You like to twist people's comments don't you, see you doing it all the time.

I did not say nor did I imply God needed doctors. I said, the parents had the responsability to get her medical help, and if God wanted her to die she would die with or without it, I was commenting on the previous post.
With holding medical treatment of a little girl, who is not on life support and she ends up dying is murder.

 

Pardon me for saying, but it's true, it hurts, when someone takes what you say, and infer a meaning which you did not intend.....

I'm glad there are some perfect people here: Judging another's bad judgement over a condition which the symptoms were undiagnosed and confused with pubiscent changes. Yeap, perfect people can judge 'murder'. I'm glad there are some who can see this so clearly as to judge an intent and 'murder'.

As for me..... I choose the route of compassion: This does not blot out right from wrong.... but it does make room for understanding.... most of us are not perfect and 'but for the grace of God' I've heard so many testify, who are reasonable in understanding that we need God every moment to be our guide: The moment we step out of his presence into our own understanding... even if we think it is from him when it comes from the mixed motives within our heart.... we can and do make faulty judgement.

God and life delivers consequences, and sometimes the courts. I haven't read anything that suggest these folks wanted their daughter to die: How many of us may consult others with a question.... and then, after much and often confusing advisement ....still do it 'our way' thinking that 'they' didn't understand thus and so... or they didn't know thus and so....which justifies our decision: and in the end, the one who makes a decision, bares the responsibility: Whatever happens to these parents.... every birthday that rolls around, every Easter and every March 23rd that rolls around.... they will remember the daughter they lost: They will remember their failure in judgement.

I have read enough to realize that the association of faith with their poor judgement is an embarassment to any community which prides itself in 'faith'. Maybe there is the real snare: We should not 'pride' our self in faith. Faith comes from God and is a gift. It is not something we make in ourselves. It is not a feeling although feelings may accompany it. It is more like God imparting his will to the willing. Just like not everyone who crys 'LORD, LORD' are truely acknowledging the Lordship of Jesus Christ in their lives nor are saved; so it is with faith... not everyone who professes possesses but many would like to claim it. Claiming it doesn't make it so.

Perhaps we would be more meekly suitable for God's service if we trusted him but doubted ourselves.

 

I wonder if the family were Jehovah's Witnesses? Some of their doctrines prevent them from seeking medical intervention.

 

Everybody has to be good at something... :thumbs:

Her parents chose God over doctors. Child dies and you call it murder.

I guess I see it as they gave her the best treatment from the best doctor. I don't know of a better doctor than the one they chose.

 

You have got to be kidding me.



OK, an old joke: a man retreats to the roof of his house, because it is flooding. A few minutes later, a sheriff comes by on in a big Hummer. He asks, "You want to come aboard?" The man replies, "No, that's OK....God will save me." A few minutes later, as conditions worsen, a fireman comes by in a boat. Same exchange; the man says, "That's OK, God will save me." Finally, a guardsman in a helicopter offers rescue. He says the same thing to him. A few minutes later, the man is swept away and drowned.

Being a Christian, he is now standing before God. He says to God, "I'm glad to be here and all, but I thought you would save me...."

God said, "You idiot...I sent you a hummer, boat, and helicopter."




I like you, LeBuick, but your view is nutty on this one. These parents did not trust God. God sent them a doctor, and they ignored him.

 

................amen.........................

 

I knew a man about 65 years old, who was a J Witness. He had a very ugly black spot the size of a dime on his upper right cheek. He wouldn't seek medical care, in spite of the many people that encouraged him to do so. He was a big wig in his church and was demonstrating his faith in God. He died because of it.

Sorry, Barb just reminded me he was a Christian Scientist....we think..

 

When I think of God and all his creation, I am reminded all was good and in perfection in the beginning.... then mankind fell by the sin of one. I think how God said, upon each day of creation, "It is good." and then rested on the seventh:

I see his awesome mercy in his design: I believe everything that was made was already made at that time: so that means, the flesh eating beast might not have been flesh eaters before the fall, but possibly became so as part of the curse: there was no sickness at the first but God, in his foreknowledge, prepared the herbs and trees to bring forth fruit not only for life, but also for healing: Misquitoes might not have been blood suckers at the start, but they were made and also the frogs who would feast on their larvae in stagnant ponds to control them. God knew ahead of time that there would be sickness and death, and he designed controls and remedies throughout his creation, a witness to his mercy and also to his love and his salvation...... that in creation the remedies and controls don't answer all the problems is evidence that what he provided in part, in showing mercy and healing within his creation, he is able to complete by being author and provider of our salvation ...... and that also of all creation which was brought under our curse.

Many subscribe to belief in God's power ( and many also deny Him). However, many who would trust the herbs and the fruits, refuse to see how God also designed the intellect of man: He imparts curiosity and knowledge to those who believe and those who don't: Not all are his children, but he can use those who are and those who aren't to still bring discovery, and knowledge, and technology together to make a cure or control for illness and disease. When I get sick, I should seek God first cause I know ultimately (first, last and always) he is my provider (no healing or remedy can take place without his will).... but that doesn't restrain my seeking medical attention and realizing that, just like the herbs, and just like the frogs, God has also prepared doctors and medicine to help and heal us.

Sometimes, it may not be something obvious: Winter (March) of 2005 I was due for my 2yr scheduled DOT physical: I was unemployed, awaiting hurricane repairs on my house for damages in 2004, and making small drafts on a 401 to sustain my living and keep my COBRA; the doc suggested a mammogram since my last was in 2000. I felt lead to follow through (April), even though there was no reason for me to think anything could be wrong: A small area of suspicion was found against the chest wall......even a mammogram could have missed easily as it was located in the outer edges of the field: A surgeon removed the tissue in May: The pathologist verdict (returned in June) was positive for cancer: I had radiation (July, August, and September) and am in a research program, testing between two meds, each of them already established for known benefits and side effects...only I don't know which one is the real and which is the placebo. COBRA covered and paid for surgery and treatment needed before it ran out, by which time I was in the research program. I still don't have insurance... but the annual mammograms, the biannual oncologist visit and lab work and annual surgeon's visit are not covered by the research program, but are affordable out of pocket. (As far as optimism or feelings go... I never 'thought' I had cancer until the pathologist report.)

My surgeon and I agree: While it might not seem like a miracle to some people who would pass it off as mere conincidence....we both agree that in God's plan there is no such thing as 'coincidence': Though I was going through various issues which was impeding my desire to return to work: Finding myself out of work, I yielded to the need to draw a draft from a 401k, accept the penalty tax, to keep my COBRA, and pay my way without going on the public 'dole'. Still I visited a doctor for a 'unnecessary' physical in the hopes of returning to work, although I had chronic fatigue....which wasn't revealed to him because I wanted to pass my physical: The mammogram I accepted on my doctor's advice with no symptoms of trouble: What it showed suggested a 9 out of 10 chance of no malignancy, according to the radiologist who gave me the results, but he was concerned or so I perceived.

I prayerfully examined my options, (thinking I had no cancer but knowing I had received no clear assurance): to ignore and follow up annually with x-ray: to have a needle biopsy: to have a core biopsy: or to have a surgical biopsy: I chose the latter and told my surgeon my willingness for him to take as much as he needed to get it all..... We both knew at this point, it was still undiagnosed and might not be malignant... and he frankly told me the surgery would be limited to a biopsy: But it came back positive, too small to classify, but definite cancer, but margins were clear. (It was so small that the prep for surgery included an x-ray directed needle into the spot so the surgeon could find and remove it.) Through it all, God sustained me with a peace I can't explain, and through it all, I had to make decisions which exceeded my understanding .... and also exceeded the medical guidance I was given.... or a core or a needle biopsy might have been done and either one could have missed the danger growing inside.

People, we must trust God. He is our provider. He gives us everything we need if we put our trust in him; he cannot fail. Trust is not passive. It is an action taken upon God's leadership. Sometimes it may mean quiet and rest..... but even that is an 'action' of choice... our choice to be obediant or not to his leadership. There is nothing outside of God that can secure us. He is my anchor. So many things we do 'for ourselves' to provide for our security: Everything of what we do to feel or think ourselves as secure can fail, but God never fails: The 401k that you thought would make retirement easier, may have to go for a change of plans.... but God is our security...not our plans: Health insurance only pays if there's a need or a claim. Life insurance pays only if there's a death. One loses their homeowner's insurance and may find no one will cover. Vehicle insurance pays after the deductibles. Our economy may prosper or fail....we have no guarantees regarding tomorrow..... but we can know the person and the power of God who knows it all: And we can trust his leadership to guide us to those who will help us and to guide us in 'our' help to others.

Jesus is LORD.

 

We are to follow the child abuse laws which coincide with whatever state these folks reside. This has nothing to do with religion, no excuse to violate the law is acceptable. Religion is not an excuse to abuse a child. There is NO excuse for a child to be tormented day in and day out with horrific pain so obvious their friends are urging them to take their child to the Doctor.

People when you see this happening, you need to contact CPS AND MAKE A REPORT.

Then if nothing is done, contact the Police. They may take the child to a hospital.

People who intentionally cause the death of a child are not of God. What they did is of the evil one, not God. To attempt to call it anything else is satanic.

The Lord commands us to follow the laws of the land unless they conflict with God's laws. As Christians we know this. We have no right to promote otherwise.

We are to be good stewards of our bodies, give a little alcohol to Timothy for his stomach trouble remember. There are instructions in the Bible upon how to care for our children.

 

Sirach 38:1-15 Honor physicians for their services, for the Lord created them; 2 for their gift of healing comes from the Most High, and they are rewarded by the king. 3 The skill of physicians makes them distinguished, and in the presence of the great they are admired.
4 The Lord created medicines out of the earth, and the sensible will not despise them. 5 Was not water made sweet with a tree in order that its power might be known? 6 And he gave skill to human beings that he might be glorified in his marvelous works. 7 By them the physician heals and takes away pain; 8 the pharmacist makes a mixture from them. God's works will never be finished; and from him health spreads over all the earth.
9 My child, when you are ill, do not delay, but pray to the Lord, and he will heal you. 10 Give up your faults and direct your hands rightly, and cleanse your heart from all sin. 11 Offer a sweet-smelling sacrifice, and a memorial portion of choice flour, and pour oil on your offering, as much as you can afford.
12 Then give the physician his place, for the Lord created him; do not let him leave you, for you need him. 13 There may come a time when recovery lies in the hands of physicians, 14 for they too pray to the Lord that he grant them success in diagnosis and in healing, for the sake of preserving life.
15 He who sins against his Maker, will be defiant toward the physician.





​

People have looked up to doctors for a long time, as this passage from Ecclesiasticus [or Sirach] reveals

 

This reminds me of the story of Larry Parker recounted in his book "We Let Our Son Die". The Parker's son had diabetes and was told by a visiting speaker that he had been healed. Consequently he withdrew his medication with his parent's consent, and eventually died. Even then the boy's parents continued to believe this was a trial of their faith and advertised his funeral as a "resurrection service", fully expecting the boy to be raised. His parents were charged and imprisoned. It is a very moving tale, and reveals that what we believe really matters. I was moved to tears reading this account, and it implanted within me a healthy hatred for the false doctrine which prohibits medical intervention in favour of the miraculous. I recommend those who are interested in this news story to read this book.

 

I once saw this movie, and this reminded me of it, I just couldn't remember the name. I sincerly hope these parents are also charged and imprisioned.

 

Thanks RBell and I like you and everyone here. Donna, I apologize if you felt a personal attack from me. Good point that God works through others. I was just dispelling the thought that God HAS to work through others. He could have also stopped the flood, laid down a bridge or parted the waters.

I was primarily concerned with what happens to the parents faith now that they invested it all in God's healing powers yet their child died? I see your point where God might say, "but I gave you medical technology" but I believe it goes deeper than that. What has now happened to their faith in a God who can heal?

My daughter was about 5 or 6 and she got in a prayer line at the Church (visiting evangilist, not something we normally do). On the way home she was rejoicing because she no longer had asthma. She started refusing to take her meds saying, "I don't have asthma any more, God healed me". We forced her to take her meds...

Now she is 15 and has had several bad attacks since then while playing basketball etc... and she knows she still has asthma. I saw what allowing that prayer line did to my daughter and I hold myself accontable to her not as father, but as spiritual leader. Not just to her but all that were at my Church.

I told this story to say I wouldn't have done what these parents did nor do I believe they made the best choices. However I also know they didn't get faith like that on their own. They more than likely were led to that faith following the instructions they learned at Church. I call it careless religion and support my view with Jesus' words, "thou shalt nor tempt the Lord thy God". I guess I should elaborate and say those are the criminals in my book. The parents were guilty of believing...

What's interesting is MSNBC recently did a report on snake biting in the Church. This really comes close in my view...

 

Thread closing warning: This thread will be closed no sooner than 11:30 p.m. ET by one of the moderators.

LE

 

Closed. LE