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Women and Chaplaincy

Discussion in 'Polls Forum' started by SaggyWoman, Sep 5, 2007.

?
  1. Yes, by all means.

    10 vote(s)
    25.6%
  2. Yes, but with some restriction.

    3 vote(s)
    7.7%
  3. No, not at all. No women chaplains.

    14 vote(s)
    35.9%
  4. No, but no one should be ordained to chaplaincy.

    2 vote(s)
    5.1%
  5. No, but they can still serve as chaplains.

    3 vote(s)
    7.7%
  6. Other answer.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. I don't have a personal problem with women being ordained as chaplains.

    7 vote(s)
    17.9%
  8. I don't have a personal problem with women being ordained, period.

    4 vote(s)
    10.3%
  9. I have a problem with women being ordained.

    13 vote(s)
    33.3%
  10. No comment.

    1 vote(s)
    2.6%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    Your point is?
     
  2. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman Active Member

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    You don't have to be ordained to be a minister.

    Men and women, ordained and unordained, can be ministers.
     
  3. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    Right, but this was about Chaplaincy. Chaplaincies by in large (very few exceptions since Chaplaincies are generally underwritten) require ordination. Hence my earlier statement still stands:

    But even in a rare case that the agency using a Chaplain didn't require ordination from a denomination or local body it is still viewed as an extension of the church and the office of Pastor or Minister, so again my statement remains (I challenge anyone to show me where a Hospital, Jail/Prison or Military Chaplaincy [or any other place where Chaplains are employed] doesn't require ordination, there may be a few but they are exceptions at best hence least relevant).
     
    #23 Alex Quackenbush, Sep 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2007
  4. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman Active Member

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    Granted, chaplaincy requires in 99.9 percent of the cases an ordaination of empty hands on empty heads.

    Ordaination by bland Wikipedia definition is:

    In general religious use, ordination is the process by which one is consecrated (set apart for the undivided administration of various religious rites). That is, it is the process in which clergy, monks or nuns are set apart and authorized by their religious denomination or seminary to perform religious rituals and ceremonies or otherwise to minister in a clerical capacity. One who is in preparation for, or who is undergoing the process of ordination, is sometimes called an ordinand.
    Ordination is a requirement in a number of jurisdictions to officiate weddings. In places where ordination is not required by secular law, it is left to the requirements of the particular denomination or church whether ordination is required to officiate weddings.

    As a chaplain, I am not sure why this necessarily has to be problematic for a female to be ordained.
     
  5. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    For those who believe the Bible teaches women may not serve in a Pastoral role it is "problematic", but for those who don't believe that, obviously it isn't.

    Again, Chaplaincy is an extension of the Pastoral Office. Secondly, and possibly more importantly, the laying on of hands (commonly called ordination) in the Bible is reserved for certainly qualified men only. Hence there is where the problem would be for those that view it that way.

    Of course, if you believe that the Pastoral Office is open for women then it is inevitable you will view the Chaplaincy as open as well.
     
    #25 Alex Quackenbush, Sep 21, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 21, 2007
  6. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman Active Member

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    1. Women can be and are set apart for the work of the Lord.

    2. The tasks of a chaplain in certain settings can and should be done without conflict what the Bible teaches.
     
  7. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    No one is questioning whether women can be set apart for the work of the Lord. All believers can and are. That isn't the debate here so you are sidetracked.

    Again my statement stands that the Chaplaincy is an extension of the Pastoral office. Those holding to the belief that the Pastoral office is for specific qualified men only see the conflict, those holding to the Pastoral office or any extension of that office being open for women don't see a conflict. Simply by virtue of the nature of the Chaplaincy being an extension of the Pastoral office, it begins with a conflict when unqualified persons fill that role.

    Obviously we do not agree.
     
  8. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known Member
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    Interestingly, I have a female friend who is a chaplain. Her husband is an elder in a denomination that does not have women pastors. There is no conflict.
     
  9. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    Obviously then they personally believe that the Pastorate or an extension of that office is available for women, in spite of what their denomination believes. That sort of thing is quite common. People often hold to views contrary to their stated denominational beliefs.

    Again though my comments and views stand.
     
  10. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman Active Member

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    If you want to look at extensions, a children's minister is an extension of the office of pastor. THe children's minister is helping the pastor minister to children.
     
  11. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    So then church's that view it as you are describing it, that the minister to children is an extension of the office of the Pastor, would have to make a choice.

    If they decide it indeed is an extension of that office then such ministry positions would be limited to again, qualified men only.

    If they decide it is not an extension of that office then obviously they wouldn't have a conflict.

    Personally anyone functioning in a formally recognized position of "Minister" within the church is functioning in a Pastoral role and the same qualifications apply for such Ministers (as opposed to the general ministry of each believer using their gift(s) within the body that is distinct from the formal office clearly taught in Timothy and Titus).

    The title formal role and title of "Minister" "Pastor" "Elder" "Bishop" are ecclesiastical synonyms with varying emphasis on the role of the Shepherd. That role is explicitly reserved for gifted, called, and biblically qualified men. Not even all men are eligible.

    Again, obviously we disagree.
     
  12. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    Associate ministers are not addressed in Scripture. Not calling it unbiblical...just extrabiblical.

    Also...there's been a great deal of discussion regarding ordination. IMHO we've made ordination into an "ordinance" on par with baptism & Lord's supper...a position that ordination was never meant to hold. We've taken it further than the NT does.

    I think we've added to and complicated the idea of ordination.
     
  13. SaggyWoman

    SaggyWoman Active Member

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    I agree with you.
     
  14. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    So since "Associate Ministers" are not addressed in Scirpture we just make up our own rules for an office we made up and that's okay? Wrong of course.

    First I disagree that "Associate Ministers" are not addressed in Scripture. The Scriptures do not require that there be a singular man engaged in full-time ministry in a church or in a church body and no other such "Ministers" exist. The Scriptures simply state that someone seeking that office meets biblical qualifications.

    Secondly, there is the recognition by some of a plurality of elders.

    In both cases, even if your idea was accepted, you would be obliged by Scripture to utilize principles similar in context and with those two contexts, where the qualification of a Minister is stated and the plurality of elders is seen, NONE of them accept women and only certain qualified men.

    On the issue of ordination, possibly you are not familiar with its history or its biblical precedent. That's okay. But you are speaking as if anyone treated ordination on par with Baptism of The Lord's Supper and no one has suggested this at all, you have failed to understand most of what those objecting have said.

    Show me where anyone treated it as being on par. You cannot because no one did so that is an invalid objection.

    Considering ordination itself it is important to ask, what is it? Is it a sacrament or divine ordinance for the church? No, because it is limited to involving the "installation" and "exaltation to authority" those recognized as Ministers, Shepherds, Bishops, Elders and so on.

    The point is what ordination represents. Whether it is formal or informal (meaning no such ritual nevertheless being receive by some body as a Minister in some capacity) ultimately the office of Minister is reserved for only certain qualified men. Whether that office be in a subordinate role or in an extension of the church's office of Minister through a Chaplaincy. And these still fall under the regulation.
     
  15. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    Since associate ministers are subordinate to the pastor, I maintain my assertion that they are extrabiblical. In no way does that excuse them from their responsibility to set an example, follow Christ, etc. I see a scriptural prohibition for a senior pastor being a woman...but since associates aren't addressed, I see no such prohibition for them.

    Or perhaps I'm quite familiar with it. No need to talk down to me. We disagree, and that's OK.

    I disagree. Scripture reserves the office of Pastor (Bishop/overseer) to men. There are other positions (that are important and used by God in this day and age) that aren't addressed by Scripture. The way I interpret the Word...that prohibition does not exist for those positions.

    But hey...your mileage may vary. Void where prohibited. Taxes, tag, and title extra. Et cetera.
     
  16. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    Well if they aren't biblical as you earlier asserted then there wouldn't be a biblical prescription for them or their qualification, hence they have no place in the church at all.

    But of course I don't see it that way at all, we disagree and obviously there is no place for further constructive debate between us. So maybe with someone else. Thanks though.
     
    #36 Alex Quackenbush, Sep 23, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 23, 2007
  17. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    I absolutely agree.
     
  18. FriendofSpurgeon

    FriendofSpurgeon Well-Known Member
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    No, the elder of a church does not hold views different to that of the denomination. In this case specifically, I know that he does not. Nor does his wife. They simply do not see serving as a chaplain in a public hospital as being an extension of being a pastor of a church.
     
  19. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    Judges 5:14
    And Deborah said unto Barak, Up; for this is the day in which the LORD hath delivered Sisera into thine hand: is not the LORD gone out before thee? So Barak went down from mount Tabor, and ten thousand men after him.
     
  20. Alex Quackenbush

    Alex Quackenbush New Member

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    Well, it is again not uncommon for a man or woman to say they believe one thing and practice another. But I do believe the topic has been exhausted.
     
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