Women Preachers - could they be okay?

Preaching is simply the deliverance of a sermon, which is an address of a religious nature. There is no authority in that besides the Holy Spirit that indwells us.

This is opinion only. Teaching does not connotate authority, but knowledge of a particular subject. People preach and teach right here on the BB, and there is no authority with that.

Now you are disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. I already stated what the definition of preaching is. The GC consists of just that.

 

This is an inadequate view of preaching in the NT. There is authority in preaching by virtue of "Thus saith the Lord."

No, it's not. It's what 1 Tim 5:17 says. That's not opinion.

Incorrect yet again. Teaching is telling people what to believe, or how to do something. It stems from knowledge that one has that another does not. When it comes to Scripture, teaching is being the voice of the Lord to people.

Much of what goes on here on the BB is just bad theology, and it is people attempting to preach and teach.

You accuse me of this having just said what you have said?? Come on, now. However, my disagreement here is not for the sake of disagreement. It stems from a profoundly different view of the authority of Scripture in preaching and teaching the Word.

And you were incorrect. Consider some of the NT passages on preaching, like 2 Tim 4, where preaching the word includes reproving, rebuking, and exhorting. Those are terms of authority. Other passages could be mustered in support.

No, the GC can be carried out through preaching, but it does not have to be. I think what we are seeing is that your view of NT preaching is rather low, compared to what Scripture says.

 

I agree.:thumbs:

 

Preaching is proclaiming a truth while challenging someone to change in someway in accordance with the truth just revealed....

My wife preaches at me all the time...

"Tim, you left your pants on the bathroom floor... Now, go take them to the washroom"

Or

"Tim, you have a bowl beside your recliner... go put it in the dishwasher"

See...

A truth revealed with a challenge to respond to truth....

OH, I left out the consequences that would be dealt out if a proper response is not made...

And ALL of us married men can think of some consequences....

CAN I GET AN AMEN UP IN HERE TONIGHT!?

 

I gave you the definition of "preaching". That's what the translators decided to use, and that is the meaning. "Thus saith the Lord" is a declaration, not a sermon. My pastor doesn't say that his sermon's are the Lord's exact word, and I would hope you don't do the same with your congregation.

1 Tim 5:17 does not say that preaching = authority. That is your opinion.

Teaching is relaying to others what you believe and why you believe it. When I lead a small group, I don't tell them what I believe is what they need to believe. You sound like a dictator.

Could be said of everyone who preaches / teaches, not just here...and not excluding you.

Now you are confusing and mixing shepherding with preaching. It's obvious they are not one and the same as you are making them. My definition of "preach" came right from the dictionary...so if you want to believe the dictionary got the definition wrong, so be it (I checked a few). It would be interesting to see your preaching style. Who do you personally reprove, rebuke and exhort in your church each week?

No, you are holding it up to an extra biblical leadership level that Scripture does NOT support.

 

Preaching is by the authority of God's word. It is not just teaching history but rather application in the present tense.

"preaching" from Louw & Nida

33.256: khruvssw {c} : to publicly announce religious truths and principles while urging acceptance and compliance - `to preach.' '

RWPNT on 1 Tim 5:17 "preaching and teaching"

Especially those who labour in word and teaching (malista hoi kopiôntes en logôi kai didaskaliâi). Either those who work hard or toil (usual meaning of kopiaô, #2Ti 2:6 in preaching and teaching (most probable meaning. See verse
#18 or those who teach and preach and not merely preside (a doubtful distinction in "elders" at this time). See #Tit 1:8 f See both kopiaô and proistamai used for same men (elders) in #1Th 5:12 and the use of kopiaô in #1Co 15:10; 16:16

One who proclaims God's message speaks to men for edification, exhortation and consolation. A teacher simply teaches.

 

And you were wrong.

The job of preachign and the preacher is to say what God would say from a passage about that passage.

It is not my opinion that the passage says "rule" and speaks of those who labor in preaching and teaching as a part of their ruling. Would you really have us believe that "ruling" isn't authority? Did you even read this verse?

Again, you have a faulty view of preaching and teaching. We are to preach the Word, the truth. I have no problem telling people what the Bible says and what they should believe. No preacher should. If he does, then he is not worthy to be a pastor.

Surely we must distinguish when there are valid exegetical options on a passage. But that doesn't equate to your low view of preaching and teaching.

If you heard that, then perhaps you need to listen better. I am not at all a dictator. I tend to make the mistake of giving too many exegetical options that confuse the hearer. Number one complaint about my leadership is that I have not led clearly and forcefully enough.

First, 2 Tim 4:2 is not about shepherding. Again, I have to wonder if you actually read the passage or are familiar with it. It is about preaching.

SEcond, your definition of preaching may have come from the dictionary. Twould be better to get it from the Bible.

Third, my preaching style is publicly available.

Fourth, I don't "personally" reprove, rebuke, or exhort anyone every week. I preach the word, and use the word to do it corporately with the prayer that the Holy Spirit is doing it personally. The job of preaching is the explain the word in such a way that it reproves, rebukes, and exhorts, and the only way it can do that is through the authority in preaching.

How so?

Perhaps you could give an idea of your background in the study of preaching. What books have you read? What teachers of preachign have you been exposed to? Who do you think models preaching well today?

 

You are only after arguments Larry, so I will end it here. I think you feed off this sort of stuff, and I don't want you to get your kicks at my expense.

 

PREACH ON PREACHER!

:laugh:

 

I agree with you. However there are some things I think we must remember.

Ruling well requires humility unlike what many think of as bulldog authority. In the church it does not come by position but what is given to the pastor. Authority is that which is given to another not just by the sake of position alone. That is the reason for the qualifications of a pastor in a church. It is more responsibility, serving, and humility than a dogged dominanace.

In secular society, authority is often exerted power but it should not be in the church.

The church is the bride of Christ and its members are Christ's servants. Too often what is being taught today is not servant leadership but authoritative dominance.

 

No doubt you are right.

 

Not at all. This is a debate forum where we carry on debates. I am not arguing in the least.

That's certainly fine, but don't blame on me.

I enjoy a good debate, to make my points and let others make theirs and examine them to see which hold up.

Honestly, in this exchange, you have not done well with your side, and that has been disappointing in that there has been no real challenge to the points made.

I pointed out your definition of preaching was incorrect, and you have no response.
I pointed out that 1 Tim 5:17 says that preaching and teachign is ruling, which is authoritative, and you have no response.
I pointed out that 2 Tim 4:2 says that preaching is reproving, rebuking, and exhorting ... all of which involve authoritative proclamation ... and your response is that I am confusing that with shepherding (which isn't even addressed in 2 Tim 4:2).
You accuse me of holding an extrabiblical leadership level that Scripture does not support, and when I ask how, you have no response.
When I ask what study you have done in preaching, you have no response.

I am disappointed by all of that since these are key issues to be examined in this debate. We cannot simply say "women can preach" until we have first examined from the Scripture what preaching and teaching are. I would like to see you do that so we can interact on it.

I could also point out in response to your post that 1 Tim 2 says that women are not to teach or exercise authority, but to remain silent. Teaching is not the same as remaining silent, another argument which you have not addressed.

So I am honestly disappointed that you won't address these key arguments so that we can measure your response.

 

I agree. Far too many leaders lack humility and all of us struggle with it at times (most of the time).

I am not sure I follow this.

 

True leadership and authority comes through servant leadership not just by position and being a bulldog. It is gained slowly and can be lost very quickly.

 

Okay. The pastor has authority by virtue of his position, but it should flow from his character and a church should evict a pastor who does not have it in his character.

 

I find it interesting that churches claim God has called the Pastor but then fails to trust and support him. IN the end it is a mistrust in God or they are not truly convinced God called him. Either way it is ungodly.


Heb 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with groaning, for that would be of no advantage to you

 

That is a lie. I addressed evey one of your arguments. I will not continue the circular arguments you desire. I responded to everything you stated...once. I will not continue to go over them. From this thread, your view is the minority...but of course you can't be wrong...and the majority must be wrong

 

I agree to a point. Some pastors are never viewed as any kind of authority because the church is disobedient or possibly the pastor lacks character and integrity.

 

There is no authority between a person and God! To believe so is to continue to believe a medival heresy. I have lived too long and seen too many pastors with feet of clay and so I expect more of myself than I do of my or any pastor.