Women Preachers - could they be okay?

No you didn't. Want proof? Twice I have asked you to tell us the study you have done of preaching, and you have yet to do it. Therefore you have not addressed every one of my arguments becuase one of my arguments is that you are not sufficiently knowledgeable enough in this area to take the dogmatic view you have taken.

In addition, you (to my knowledge) have never addressed how "ruling" is not a position of authority in 1 Tim 5:22.
YOu have not addressed a biblical definition of preaching.
Your attempt to address 2 Tim 4:2 was based on a false statement that I was confusing shepherding with preaching, which is not in 2 Tim 4:2 and which I did not do.

So the fact is that you have not addressed them all and you have not addressed them in any meaningful way. You made no arguments; you simply made assertions and did not appeal to the biblical text except to say I was wrong about it.

Fine, but don't be pompous and blame it on me. Blame it on the fact that you are unwilling to engage the Scriptures on this with me. This is a debate forum. So debate.

How is this relevant? Is it possible that the majority is wrong? Consider that the majority of this world are unbelievers. Should we count them as right because they are in the majority? Of course not. You realize that fallaciousness of that argument.

Right and wrong is determined by the Scripture, not by popular vote. So if you would engage the Scripture, we could actually have a discussion.

 

so what do you do with a passage like eph 6:1-4, where children are told to obey their parents in the Lord? Or Heb 13:17 where believers are told to obey those who have authority over them for they watch for their souls? Or 1 tim 3:1-7, where the pastor is said to be an overseer, a manager of the house of God just as he is with his family? Of 1 Tim 5:17 where a pastor is said to rule? Or 1 Thess 5:14 where a pastor is said to "have charge over you"? Or what about Romans 13:1-7 where civil government is an authority over us?

There are a lot of passages in the Bible about authority for you to say that there is no authority between a person and God.

How do you deal with these?

 

Just as in Christ there is no male nor female, no Jew nor Greek, there is no clergy or laity. All are either laity or clergy. Elton Trueblood, Carlyle Marney and others were correct in their analysis of this area. I suggest you read:

Elton Trueblood's "Company of the Committed"
Carlyle Marney's "Priests to Each Other."

And, note I said no man/woman/person stands between an individual and God. Salvation is directly from Christ and not via any pastor, priest or imman.

Also, as I said, I am old enough and have seen so many ministers/preachers and have gotten to know them well to know that I should never put my trust in them as far as my spirituality or my relationship with God goes.

The authority I recognize is their deeper knowledge of theology than mine and I recoginze them as my teacher. But not teachers in the sense that I accept anything they say or preach without examining their message.

 

Re: Women Preachers?

Bro Tim,

Since we live in the same state, I guess I'm gonna have to cut you a little slack...LOL. To me, Bishop is another name for Elder and/or preacher. In the ORBs, after you have been ordained, you are given the name of Elder. Other denominations use "Bishop" for that title, I think. So to me, Bishop would be the same as Elder, which would mean, preacher. I hope I am not going round and round like a dog chasing his tail trying to explain myself. This is why I think a woman has no right to preach. A woman is to remain "silent". If she would sign language, would this still be considered preaching?? LOL I can't see where someone could preach the Gospel and be silent. To me, this makes it impossible for a woman to preach. I hope this helps!!

Willis

 

I used to think men always had authority over women. But since I've been posting here, I've come to respect women as minister (not pastors, though). Women can minister to other women and children, but not speak in church as Pastors. Corinthinians addresses this clearly. Only women truely understand other women, especially older women to younger ones.

love,

Sopranette

 

God is the authority. He has the power to humble a proud person. God opposes the proud and gives grace to the humble. When God opposes the proud, they lose every time.

 

You are right. God is the authority.

 

The problem with this is that the Bible says the first, and not the second. God has called shepherds to lead his flock.

Your statement about salvation is certainly true, but again I ask, how do you understand the many passages that I referenced above?

Of course, I agree, and I tell my church that all the time.

But I am not sure that really addresses the issue here.

I hope you will tell us how you understand the passages I cited above, which seem to clearly institute an authority in the church and in life.

 

I guess I need to know what others mean here by the word 'authority.' Throughout history the word has been used, I should say misused by clergy to mean spiritual authority. That misuse and the sorted history surrounding that misuse brings me to distrust the use of the word.

Let me put it this way. I have been ordained as a deacon. However I do not see this as having given me any special privlidge or special place in God's pecking order ... so to speak. I do see it as a humbling experience, and one that places more responsibility on my shoulders to live the life I say I believe in. It may give me a little influence, deserved or not, but no special authority. I hope this makes a bit of sense.

I see the pastor in the same light, as one who have greater responsiblity in demonstrating the Christian life. To me this should also be a humbling experience.

All too often I have encountered clergy who are proud and even arrogant at times of their special place or calling. How do I see a pastor's calling? To me the pastor or ministers calling is to prepare the ministers in his church, all too often called laity, for their ministries in the world. They can minister where he/she cannot go, and have witness to people he/she can never meet. I believe that God calls all to minister to the world and to the lost. It is simply that some are called to minister within the church and the majority are called to minister in the world and the workplace.

 

What do you mean by "spiritual authority"? And is "spiritual authority" that a misuse of authority? I don't think you have established that at all.

It makes great sense and you are correct. Deacons have no authority in the church. They are "servants" which is what the word "deacon" means. They are described differently that pastors, which is a common mistake in Baptist churches particularly.

I think it is very humbling to be a pastor, particularly when I understand the issue of authority. Pastors, in Scripture, do seem to be given authority of some type (as the verses I cited above indicate). I am not sure how you understand those verses.

This is sinful on their part. But does that negate the biblical teaching on authority? For example, some parents have abused their kids. Does that mean that parents have no authority over children, or that children do not have to obey their parents? Of course not. So how do you reconcile this in your understanding.

I totally agree.

But again, I have to ask, how do you deal with the passages above that seem to clearly indicate that pastors have authority, rule, or charge over the flock?

 

I do not see how that applies to pastors and their congregation as it is speaking about families. To me to try to say this is speaking about spiritual authority within the church body is to take a very liberal interpretation.

I have no problem with this. Of course their counsel must always be within scripture. Spiritual authority is a very fragile attribute and can be lost or taken away when mistakes are made. To me spiritual authority is not an automatic life-long attribute given simply because a person is ordained.

Show me a person with these attributes and I will have no problem listening to that person and working with them. If they are as wise as they are good than submitting to their teachings and directions would be no problem. However, how often do we find such a person?

Again show me such a person. Also this, again, is giving conditions necessary before spiritual authority can be considered.

I see nothing in this passage giving spiritual authority, but advice on our relations with others.

I used Peterson's "The Message" as it is very easy to understand and I believe quite accurate. I know there are those who hate this translation ... but then it is difficult to please everyone.

I believe there may be a problem with how we interprete the word authority. I am not at all sure exactly what the King James translators meant when they used the word. Here is the etimology of the word:

 

I didn't use it for pastors and congregations. You said there was no authority between man and God. You did not limit it to a church in your comments.

This is true, but first your quote a bad translation that softens the original text, and second, this is an admission of authority.

You better find them in every church because if a man does not have these attributes, then he is not qualified to be a pastor.

Again, he better exist in every church.



Quote:
I Thess 5:13-15Get along among yourselves, each of you doing your part. Our counsel is that you warn the freeloaders to get a move on. Gently encourage the stragglers, and reach out for the exhausted, pulling them to their feet. Be patient with each person, attentive to individual needs. And be careful that when you get on each other's nerves you don't snap at each other. Look for the best in each other, and always do your best to bring it out.

v. 12 was the verse in question: 1 Thessalonians 5:12 But we request of you, brethren, that you appreciate those who diligently labor among you, and have charge over you in the Lord and give you instruction,

Clealry, the idea of authority is there. but again I wonder about the translation you are quoting.

ah, that just answered my question. the message is one of the most inaccurate translations that is actually widely used. the NIV, NASB, or ESV is a much better choice for understanidng what God said as oppposed to what PEtersen said.

Etymologies are bad ways to do word studies, since people do not use words according to where they came from but according to how they are used in the society and culture that they live in. Second, whatever the KJV translators meant is irrelevant to me. I don't use a KJV. But these various passages clearly show a spiritual authority in the church.

So I go back to wondering how, given these passages, you can say that there is no authority between man and God.

 

I do not see a father or a mother as having authority between their child and God. But a father or mother can point their child toward God, or be a hinderance to the child finding God.

Again, I cannot see anywhere that anyone has authority between an individual and God. They may have authority over them, say in civil matters, but not between them and God.

What do you mean when you use the word authority?

 

Ephesians 6:1 "Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right."

The sentence is a command with the condition "in the Lord." Certainly a child's obedience would be to God first not a parent. However a child is commanded to obey the parents in the Lord.

The U.S. judicial system recognizes the authority of the parent in a parent-child relationship.

 

True, but the parent does not stand between the child and God. The parents state of salvation does not affect the child's state of salvation.

 

Part of the not seeing eye to eye on this may be from arguing the points using English translations. There are some interesting post (I think 6 or so) on Wade Burleson's blog.

It is informing when you read about different words being translated to the same word in English when they had very different meanings in Greek.

I haven't fully decided where I stand but I know one thing--I want to stand where the scripture truly stand.

 

Absolutely astounding!

Ten pages and the majority of the posters still seem to be unable to distinguish between a spiritual gift and a church position!

Most of the rest seem determined to combine the two into one thing.



:tear:

{Big Sigh!}

Ed

 

:laugh: I think my hubby would give you one if he read this board! :laugh:

 

EdSutton--I think maybe some of our churches confuse us!!

I get the arguments against women in office in the church.

I get the arguments for women in office in the church.

I realize a strong case for both views can be made using "proof texts", so we have to look at the whole of scripture for our answer. We also have to look at the original languages, not pit one English translation against another.

What I DON'T get is the stance that women cannot or should not hold the office, but can and should do the job--just for less pay.

My home church in NM would have done just that--argued eight ways to Sunday why they could not ordain a woman as youth pastor or music minister. However, they had no qualms about hiring her to do the exact job for less pay.

I figure I can respect a church that strongly holds scripture forbids the ordination of women--and acts in concord with that.

I figure I can respect a church that strongly holds that scripture allows the ordination of women--and acts in concord with that.

But I don't respect a church that will not ordain a woman because she would be in authority over men, and then hires her for less pay to do a job that puts her in authority over men. That smacks of human discrimination.