Word/Faith Doctrines

I think what OR posted on page one showed all the heresies. Are those not heresies to you?

Word Faith teachings deny the Biblical teaching on the nature of God and Jesus. They also deny that the atonement was completed on the cross.

WF teaches:
God the Father has a body

God was shut out of his creation in the Fall and has to depend on man to carry out his plans

Jesus had to pay for our sins in hell by fighting Satan

Jesus literally became sinful (did not just take sin on him)

Jesus became Lord or Christ when he was baptized (taught by some WF teachers) not before

Additionally:
Faith is a force

There are hidden spiritual laws which, if you learn them, you can manipulate to get what you want

 

Here's Amy's definition of a heresy: "Heresy is anything that is contrary to God's word." According to this definition, even the Baptist practice of a deacon board is heresy, because it is unbiblical.

Scripture only speaks of a eldership board (1 Tim 4).

She has called the practice of infant baptism a heresy.

I'm not the one who has proposed a definition for heresy.

 

Thanks, but I wonder for what reason?

 

Justin Peters, a Southern Baptist minister from Vicksburg, Mississippi has done a lot of work studying the WoF movement. Check him out speaking on it at http://www.justinpeters.org/Chapel.wmv and let me know what you think. I believe he is speaking at Southwestern Seminary in that video.

 

WoF teachings go beyond a disagreement or a difference of opinion. Their view of the nature of God and the person of Jesus Christ go beyond that. Their elevation of man to the level of God is not just a different perspective of truth.

It is heresy.

 

It's interesting that our early church brethern were awfully reluctant to use the term "heresy" in their disputes with the opposition during the formation of the Church.

Yet here we see that term flung around like a battle mace to excoriate and injure anyone that opposes a position.

I don't care the Word of Faith movement and have deep doctrinal disputations with them. That said it is hard for me to suggest our disagreements are tantamount to heresy. Heresy is a term that should, imho, be reserved for the most severe offense to the Gospel and Person of the Godhead.

 

When a person says that they are "children of the King" and therefore have the same power and authority as God does, then I would call that a "most severe offense to the Gospel and Person of the Godhead."

My biggest problem with WoF churches is that many folks respond to the gospel of health and wealth and spiritual power, instead of the Gospel of Christ.. If I ask for salvation because I want health, wealth, ect, and not because I realize that I am a sinner, then I question the reality of the salvation.

In my opinion, teaching a false gospel is one of the worse things we can do, and does serious damage to people's true relationship with God.

And a false gospel is heresy.

AJ

AJ

 

So where does "most severe" begin, in your opinion? And on what do you base that standard on?

 

Yep, that about describes WoF.

 

Hopefully this will answer several questions.

When I consider what is to be deemed "heretical" or not I usually take my cues from the early church and their leaders. They set out very early in deciding that issues of heresy were to be determined by denial of foundational belief which is taught clearly in Scripture.

One document that I use as a good measure of these foundational areas is the Apostles Creed (I see it as a confession, but I'll be generous and call it by its regular name.)

I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary.
He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting.

(by "catholic church" I understand that the Apostles Creed means the bride of Jesus Christ i.e. the universal church.)

This is where I set my standard because I see all these things explicitly taught in Scripture as being foundational.

What about people who "believe" in the Gospel out of a place of a) intellectual assent but not a true shift in lifestyle, b) decide to follow Christ because of the "fire insurance" that comes with Him?

I'm not a fan of the WoF movement. I think its foolishness and false teaching, but they communicate the Gospel (in most settings) just like many evangelical and Baptist preachers. How often do we hear preachers begging people to be "saved" in order to change their status in life...and that happens in the context of a Baptist church?

I think we need to have a greater conversation about what makes our representation of the Gospel different than theirs. It's like my issue with the Roman Catholic Church, in which many of my friends attend and are faithful Christians. I don't agree with their view of salvation, specifically justification being held by the Church. That doesn't disqualify them from Christianity imho. Same for my Lutheran and Presbyterian friends. Both have different views of the salvation thing but we still enjoy fellowship around the belief that salvation (however it happens) is through Jesus Christ.

But what about Philippians 1:15-18?
1:15 Some, to be sure, are preaching Christ from envy and rivalry, but others from goodwill. 1:16 The latter do so from love because they know that I am placed here for the defense of the gospel. 1:17 The former proclaim Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, because they think they can cause trouble for me in my imprisonment. 1:18 What is the result? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being proclaimed, and in this I rejoice.

Paul is speaking about two different forms (theologically and methodologically) of Gospel presentation yet finds harmony around the Cross. Why can't we label these people as false teachers (so long as they subscribe to essentials) but deny the label of heresy?

 

I use the word "heretical" or "heresy" on any level regarding false teaching. That will not change. As far as WOF goes it ranks on the highest level.

 

I prefer Bible references over a man-made document such as The Apostle's Creed. In fact I believe some of The Apostles Creed to be false teaching in itself, and not biblical, so I surely wouldnt use it to defend false teaching.

As far as the Baptists that you refer to that are:

What about people who "believe" in the Gospel out of a place of a) intellectual assent but not a true shift in lifestyle, b) decide to follow Christ because of the "fire insurance" that comes with Him?

I would never ever contend that every person that sits in every service of the Baptist church is truely saved. In fact, I believe that the true number of truely born again folks in any church is much lower than the membership roles imply.

I never meant to imply that WoF preachers never preach about salvation, what I am saying is that the overall teachings are mostly about health and wealth.....all about what God will do for us, not what we can do for God....and this is very destructive, because it lures people into the church out of selfishness and not repentence.

My wife's father is a WoF preacher, and I have heard them "command" God to do things, like they have power over God. In fact, they even admit that they do. They claim that the Bible gives them the right. This is a very bad heresy.

They base their whole existence on what God is going to give them. They honestly believe that anyone that isnt rich and healthy are either sinners or dont have enough faith.

Every Charasmatic I know is either rich or wants to be rich. (I wont even go into their 1960's country and western hair styles) And this is their center of worship. They see tithes and offerings as an "investment" and are looking for a return in riches.

As far as a "view" of salvation, there is no such thing as a view...there is only one way to salvation and that is the one the Bible prescribes. Anything else, like baptism, church sacraments, ect is heresy.

My father in law is a Rhema graduate, and I have lived in the Tulsa area for several years (could actually see Rhema from my house) and if you know anything about WoF then surely you know that the Tulsa/Broken Arrow area is the center of most of their ministries. (Oral Roberts University is there also) WoF churches are on every corner, most of my neighbors and family were WoF.

So, I am talking out of experience with them, not from rumors. And since my wife and I are constantly pressured to be like them, I have studied their doctrines, and attended their churches, and I can honestly say that I believe the doctrine to be straight out of the pits of hell, and that we bible believing christians have no business fellowshipping with them, or accepting them as brothers and sisters in Christ.

That being said, I do realize that there are many born again Christians that are being decieved by the WoF churches, and I pray that they will be delivered and returned to a bible believing church.

AJ

 

Actually, the term heresy was used by some in the early church when there were false teachings. Irenaeus is famous for his "Against Heresies" written to oppose false teachings. Here's a link the beginning of it:
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.ii.ii.html

In fact, heresies are why many of the creeds came about.

A heresy is only a term to describe something already in the Bible: false teaching, another gospel, that which is contrary to truth.

But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! Gal 1.8

But I am afraid that, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds will be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ.
For if one comes and preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted, you bear this beautifully. 2 Cor 11.3, 4

Is the Word Faith God another God than the God in the Bible? Yes.

Is the Word Faith Jesus another Jesus? Yes.

If it's the wrong God and the wrong Jesus, the gospel is also corrupted.

If this doesn't fit the term "heresy," then nothing does.

 

All I can say, Rev, is LOL!!! (Nice pic)

 

I haven't read this thread, so this might have already been covered.
The WOF philosophy is simple.

They teach: Put your faith in "faith."
We teach: Put your faith in Christ.

Faith always has an object. What is the object of your faith?
The object of my faith is Christ.

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of my faith."

 

I have stated that I consider the Word Faith movement the dominant heresy of the day. After reading the OP of Marcia's thread National Pastors Conference Really Depressing I am not so sure!

 

The avatar. It's actually quite humorous. Nothing to do with the post...sorry for the confusion.

 

If you want to get a view from the inside, talk with someone who was part of the WoF movement for 25 years. She finally came to the conclusion that first, it didn't work; and second, it wasn't biblical.

Imagine, you come to the point where you no longer believe a doctrine you have held for 25 years. Not only did you believe it, but zealously tried to convince others of its truth. I have a friend who was so traumatized by that experience that she quite going to church for 15 years. She didn't know what to believe, but she stayed away because she didn't want to risk a hurt like that again.

Lemme tell you, she is not the least bit charitable. To her, it's not just a difference of opinion. WoF is a lie, a false gospel, promotes a God who is at the mercy of human beings. Ask her if it's heresy or not. It nearly destroyed her emotionally and spiritually.