"Works Religion"

James was referring those who said they had faith, but weren't doing anything. Then he says this, "Show me your faith without works", you can't see faith, unless it is acted out. A living faith. A faith that works. The book of James is the "put your money where your mouth is" book. "Justify your justification." thats what James is saying.

Sometimes I don't see how some people use this to try to refute sola fide. It's not different from anything Paul wrote, they go hand in hand. James is a very practical book, Paul had plenty of practical material in his epistles too. James is spurring people on in his epistle, he's saying "Use all this faith you say you have, if you have it."

Paul repeatedly did the same thing. They just don't cantradict each other at all. James' epistle doesn't contradict sola fide or sola gratia or election or predestination. Some people just can't understand that. Even Martin Luther called James "an epistle of straw." He did so because the RCC used this book to justify thier "faith alone can't justify" doctrine. Faith alone in Christ alone DOES justify sinners, and those justified sinners, if they've been given the gift of faith, won't just sit on it.

Simply as I can sum it up: James isn't telling people to work thier way to heaven, he's telling people that if they really have faith, they'd be doing something with it. It's an exhortation to be active, not a contradiction of other biblical doctrine.


Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin

 

Much better, Shiloh. Correct without 'shouting'. And I agree 100% with this!
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Unless the works don't match up to what I think they should be. - Oh wait! That last sentence is someone else, not me. I just posted it to help them out, and save them some time! :tongue3: :laugh: :thumbsup:

Ed

 

Who says that Claudia?

 

How about maybe Claudia? I'm no longer! :thumbsup:

Ed

 

J.Jump has answered this before, I have answered this before, and others have, as well.

Let me ask three of my own questions.

Why is it so hard to understand Eph. 2:8-10, John 6:47, or Romans 4:1-10 for some?

Why is it so hard to see the difference between salvation and discipleship?

Why is that so difficult for people to grasp?

Ed

 

HP: Sorry Ed. I missed any explanation of that distinction. Would you be so kind to explain it to me?

 

[Double.
Ed

 

althoough I don't have the time for a complete discourse, at this time, here is a starter: Post # 8 in - http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=936865#post936865

Ed

 

Ha, why do I even bother?

 

Claudia I really hope you will consider studying through some of the material that I PMed you regarding. But just to answer your latest question in regard to James . . .

What you have is the word faith used. So what most of Christendom says is well if the word faith is used then it must be talking about eternal (spiritual) saving faith.

The same thing goes for the word saved. When most of Christendom sees the word "saved" they automatically assume that the passage in question is speaking of eternal (spiritual) salvation.

Unfortunately that will get one into all sorts of problems. While the word faith is used in James and the word saved/save is used in James the context of James is not eternal (spiritual) salvation. He is addressing a group of "saved" individuals. So he is addressing something other than eternal (spiritual) salvation. Those folks already had that and were not in need of further teaching on that matter. He is speaking of a faith that works in regard to something that is after eternal (spiritual) salvation.

When we compare Scripture with Scripture one does not nullify the other, but harmonizes one with another. The only way that works can harmonize with Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31 and Romans 4 is that it is not speaking of eternal (spiritual) salvation.

If works enters into the picture of eternal (spiritual) salvation in ANY WAY shape or form front loaded, middle loaded or back loaded then we have just made a lie out of Ephesians 2:8-9, Acts 16:30-31 and Romans 4.

Unfortunately again what Christendom has done to "fit" James into a theological bent that is workable is they say James is talking about eternal (spiritual) salvation faith in that a "real" faith will be a faith that "works." And if you don't have a faith that "works" then you aren't really saved.

That' just backloaded works salvation.

Eternal (spiritual) salvation is not based on works. It's not concerned with works before, during or after. Eternal salvation is ONLY faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, done on behalf of the sinner. If faith is placed in that finished work and a person believes in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ they are saved. Period. End of dicussion, because that is where Scripture places the period and ends the discussion on eternal (spiritual) salvation.

Once the word "works" is even uttered out of someone's mouth the conversation has moved out of the realm of Spiritual salvation and into the realm of discipleship/stewardship.

Whether we like it or not or whether we agree with it or not there are going to be some folks that enter into eternity that were not fruit producers during this lifetime.

And again the problem is that Christendom thinks that we have this lifetime and then we step out into eternity. And so when we only see those two time frames then it is said well God isn't going to let non-fruit producers into heaven how can He? That would be allowing sinners into heaven.

What most of Christendom fails to realize is that there is a 1,000-year period that is between this lifetime and eternity. Where works comes into play is not for kingdom purposes not eternal purposes per se.

What has happened is that all of the warnings that are in Scripture they are real. You see them (alot of Christendom say those warnings are not for believers unfortunately), but in the past you have clearly shown that you see the warnings as warnings for believers.

And that is true. The mistake that is often made when those that see the warnings are for believers they think they have eternal ramfications, but they are kingdom ramifications.

Gotta cut it off there . . . my daughter just woke up crying I love being a dad!

 

Well said Claudia!

in Christ,

Bob

 

There is no such thing as a Dead faith with works! Please show me if there is.

Do you believe works help assure your salvation?

Salvation has always been and will always be about Faith NOT works. Works have always been the evedence of our salvation, period.
So if you beleive you can add to or be MORE saved via your works then by your own admission you deny Eph 2:8-9 as being a lie from the lips of God Himself.
Salvation is of Faith and NOT works. Period, end of story, case closed.

The legalistic Jews couldn't understand this either and give your same argument.

The only work of God you need to do is believe. It is from this that Christ lives His life through you. (Gal 2:20) We live out the works God will do through us decalring His manifested presence in our lives and we WILL walk in them for we are His and love Him. James Expounds on it concerning the identifying marks of one who is saved. They are doing those things God has afore declared you to walk in. What is the purpose of this walk, salvation?? Absolutely NOT!

Your works are to bring glory to the Father NOT bring to add to your salvation or make you more worthy of it.

But we notice that the Jews didn't understand this. Works is apart of salvation and makes you worthy of salvation according to them for they lived according to the Law and not according the Law of Faith.

Salvation is NOT conditional upon our work but the WORK of Christ that justifies.
Either What He did was suffienct or else He is not the Christ.

 

Claudia, that is what a works based religion is about.

Your salvation is dependent on your works.

Our salvation is evedenced by works but works has not play or accociation with the salvation of a person.


BTW- How much did God charge them for those commodities? Nothing, because you can't buy them. It is a natural part of who you are IF you are IN Christ. Christ in you who GAVE it to you.

 

Hey you posted while I was posting. :tongue3:

 

Yes, but what you are missing is this point concerning works. It is not about you keeping what you did not earn for the price was to high for you to even aquire. And as you stated we are Christs so in turn we are not our own to go our own way from Him. Works will not help you keep salvation. See in this construct Works are the REASON you stay saved and therefore it DOES play a part of your salvation. Because Christ did not secure His purchase of You. You were not fully redeemed without your works.

Where the opposite constructs state your will continue to do what by nature you do (being saved and doing good works). You are redeemed regardless of what you COULD do. Those works are the result howevers due to what He has done IN YOU. They have nothing to with salvation in light of Gods judgment for that has been satified in Christ. Works are the evedence of Christ in Us. IF there is no changed life then there will be no works, then by virtue of the scriptures can speak with that person to examine themselve to see if they are in the faith as says the scriptures by Paul. In this construct you ARE full redeemed and works play no part in the redemption. IT is proof you have been redeemed.

It seem a fine line of the surface but it is a wide chasm that never meets when researched.