Would you go to a church where ........

It was certainly never my intention to say anything like that about your husband or your church's staff. If I acted like that was, I am sorry.

 

I believe the church exists for the empty seats and not always the filled - so even if you started off easy and gradually got harder - what does that do for the new people who come in....?

Eventually you'd have babies walking into an advanced seminary class.

Nothing should be dummed down, and nothing should be over their heads. Sermons should be beautiful, lead people to Jesus, contain story, scripture and actually "teach" something.

 

The most common reason that I've seen for pastors leaving the church is simply that the church is filled with people like some of the posters on this board -- those who live to argue with everything the pastor teaches, those who will seek out others to coax away, those who have money as their god, and those who have made the church THEIR church instead of God's church.

Sometimes (rarely!) a pastor may find himself better off after one of these moves. More typically, he finds himself scratching by, hoping that he can feed his family, and working as a Wal-Mart greeter until he can find another church to wrestle. I currently know multiple ordained pastors who are no longer in pastoral ministry because of how they have been beat up in their churches.

Some DO advance in their careers to be sure. That happens. God is okay with that. He told us that the workman is worth his wages and that leaders are worth double wages. Seldom do local churches wish to heed those verses... My last pastorate paid me so small an amount that to say it publicly would be slander against the church... I've been serving salary free since (and doing more ministry!).

 

So what? 6 generations insured belief purity by doing it this way. If one church falls then another stands. Impurity is caused by mixing & tolerating. I will have none of it & I have insured the purity of thine own.

 

I have never been given any trouble when preaching on election, predestination, etc., but many have given me trouble when I tell them that they are to be discipling people. Some are encouraged and others want to run or fight for their position. Some will step up and ask for help to learn how, and others will make trouble. The spiritual leader must be one who manages his own home and the church. If he is not teaching and training his children and those at the church then he is in disobedience of Mt. 28:19, 20.

Evangelism is like a woman being pregnant and having babies. Discipleship is like being a parent. Any man can get a woman pregnant, but it takes a parent to raise a child up to be a mature adult with wisdom.

The early church did not grow without both evangelism and discipleship. Jesus commanded to make disciples. You cannot make disciples without doing evangelism.

In a church I pastored I solved the problem. I preached from a text that Jesus preached and I preached it to the congregation. I just did not tell them the text. In the congregation there was a man who thought it was his duty to be my personal critic. After the sermon he criticized me for not being deep enough. When I opened my Bible and showed him the text he never said another word to me again. He was speechless and walked away looking rather stupid. His arrogance snared him well.

People do not have trouble with intellectual knowledge. They have trouble with discipline and living in obedience to the commands in scripture.

 

There are loads of disobedient in churches today because their leaders are not making disciples and are deluded as James 1:22 teaches.

Nobody will see the truth and maintain doctrinal purity unless they are practicing the commands in scripture.

Intellectual preaching does nothing to ensure that anyone will live the Christian life. Someone has to get their hands dirty and teach people how to make disciples and teach them obedience.

Faith is not learned or experienced by sitting in a pew listening to a sermon. It is not done by just evangelism either.

Being a doer of the word is one of the best guarantees of doctrinal purity.

I have not ever seen one person who makes disciples ever not be in the word and prayer, but I have seen the arrogance of many who claimed doctrinal purity who were not making disciples.

In Mt. 28:19, 20 Jesus said that we are to go, not sit inside of a building and claim that because we preach so well that somehow people will come flying in the door. Most people do not learn the same way that so many preachers claim people do. So their pulpit empire reaches few. To say that people will come flying in the door is to say that they are better than Jesus because He did not make such great claims. Jesus preached and went to the people.

 

We'll have to disagree then... And, though I mean this in a good-natured way, it will be difficult to find any church sufficient, for I've not yet found one that teaches always in accordance with my own view of doctrine or theology. Perhaps you have, but (again, in good nature) I doubt it.

 

Brother, don't read into my stuff things I didn't say... I'm not EXCLUDING any class of teaching by failure to mention it in brief posts in a forum thread.

My point in THIS THREAD is that someone ought teach in churches with failed doctrinal stances in order to bring them to a point of biblical truth. That "set" would necessarily include teaching on discipleship.

And, what do you have against "intellectual" preaching? I find it more successful than emotional preaching, and more successful than preaching that simply reiterates that which people already agree. Though heavy doses of theology are for small-group classrooms and not the pulpit (we preach the Word, not theology texts) at times it is fine to challenge the congregation to understand that they may not know all there is to know about any given subject of theology.

 

Wrongo.....in fact the Lord has just exceedingly blessed me in that category. I walked in Sunday to the Head elder/ Preacher providing a simply wonderful sermon (which is going to be a series) on Election & Doctrines of Grace. I could not be happier. Plus the church is growing to the point is busting out (no empty seats) & they will have to contract for a bigger building. This church is Reformed & Baptistic. Its even in New Jersey. LOL.

BTW, my son has gotten serious with a girl who is Dutch Reformed My wife is also of that background. God provided dear Brother, God provides & I could not be happier!:godisgood:

Praise God from whom all blessings flow.

 

There is a lot wrong if all your preaching does is reach people intellectually. The cognitive level is the lowest and most ineffective level to be teaching at. While one may know a lot about God he will never know God unless he gets past the intellectual and onto being a doer of the word (James 1:22). Most people are not cognitive learners who go out and apply it. (About 2% may do that). Most people need to be shown as Jesus did with His disciples.

It is one thing to tell others to trust God, but quite another to show them how by your actions and then they actively trust God.

If your preaching does not affect the intellect, emotion , and will, then I would conclude that it is of little value. The purpose of scripture is not to get filled with intellectual knowledge.

I am unable to think of one time when a person was involved in pornography that they needed more knowledge to get out of that mess.

 

Excellent point.

 

Oh thats not up to me Salty.....esp in these economic times.

 

He always does, and it's not just for the reformed either!!!