Ye must be born again !

I understand opinions, but opinions don't equal Biblical theology. What you wrote sounds like you believe in reincarnation, to tell the truth.

Born once; die twice.
Born twice; die once.

Do you understand that?

 

Yes, but Christ was not teaching Nicodemus about the fall of man; he was teaching him about the new birth.

The fact that you don't understand what I said tells me that you don't have a clue as to what the new birth is.

 

You are taking this way too far. Adam is PHYSICALLY united to us and it is manifested through PHYSCIAL birth. However, all humanity is SPIRITUALLY dead and there is no previous SPIRITUAL union between the elect and Christ except "according to purpose." That is precisely why the elect "must be born....of the Spirit" as there is no previous spiritual union. Christ acted as the respresentative of the people given to Him by the father (the elect) and all that the Father gave him will be given spiritual life (Jn. 17:2) and will come to him (Jn. 6:37,39).

Regeneration has to do with spiritual union between the elect and the Holy Spirit. This spiritual union is a creative act of God through the empowered word of God just as in the creation of light in darkness was the result of the empowered Word of God (2 Cor. 4:6). Previously the elect was "alienated from the life of God" THROUGH BLINDESS of the heart and DARKNESS in the mind (Eph. 4:18). Eternal life is conveyed THROUGH KNOWLEDGE (Jn. 17:2) - experiential knowledge of God through Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 4:6) whereby we are born of the incorruptible Word of God.

Regeneration or giving of spiritual life, or spiritual union with God is creative act of God (Eph. 2:10a) whereby we are created in true righteousnes and holinesss (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and renewed in the image of God. It is a Washing or cleansing of sin from the spirit of man (Eph. 2:2-3) and renewing by the Holy Spirit in the image of God (Tit. 3:5). It is the effectually calling through the preaching of the gospel whereby the gospel comes not in word only BUT IN POWER and IN DEMONSTRATION of the Holy Spirit (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

In short, regeneration is God giving a NEW HEART and a NEW SPIRIT (Ezek. 36:26-27; Heb. 10:15-17; Jer. 31:30) a spiritual circumcision of Christ (Col. 2:13) whereby the fleshly nature is cut off from the human spirit and removed to the "members" or the flesh (Romans 7:21-25) and a new nature is given called the "inward man" (Rom. 7:21) that delights in the law of God because it is created in true holiness and righteousness by God.

 

You cannot make the PHYSICAL analogy (Adam and his physical poserity) the basis for the SPIRITUAL simply because the PHSYICAL analogy necessitates previous existing PHYSICAL LIFE whereas the Spiritual has no previous existing SPIRITUAL LIFE but arises out of existing SPIRITUAL DEATH.

If there was no prexisting PHYSICAL LIFE there would be no physical offspring from Adam. However, in the case of Christ there is no preexisting SPIRITUAL LIFE but rather SPIRITUAL DEATH. Adam's poserity is manifested through GENERATION but Christ's through REgeneration.

Christ told the Pharisees that God was able to raise up children of promise from "these stones" and stones have no existing life form of any kind.

I don't deny that both Adam and Christ were REPRESENTATIVES for a people but Adam represented a people PHYSICALLY existing in his loins made visible through generation whereas Christ represented a people yet in need of Spiritula life thus spiritually dead and it is His provision that obtained their spiritual life. His "seed" were contained in the "seed" of Adam with existent physical life "in Adam" but without any SPIRITUAL life whatosever and without any existence prior to Adam EXCEPT according to God's eternal purpose "in Christ."

 

I find that up to this point, I am in fact in agreement with you. I also think you provide a good breakdown of the process of regeneration and the attaining of the New nature for those Born from above. However, I do have questions regarding the next part.

With this statement in mind I question the application in real life. So, if I were to follow your thinking where

where we willingly take up one instead of the other in a moment by moment or day to day struggle with our natures; what if we put on sin more often or than we do righteousness so to speak? Since, as you say

. Then do you hold that once the New nature is obtain and NO MATTER HOW MUCH OF OUR OLD NATURE WE CHOOSE OVER THE NEW. We are therefore excused even if we were to never choose righteousness (save from original justification) and only loose growth, usefulness, future rewards, and even this present life to Satan? How does this stand up to scriptures like Luke 13:6-8

or Luke 13:34-35

 

You simply fail to understand that the "seed" is contained within the ADAMIC RACE not some extraterrestial seed and that none of that "seed" preexisted Adam in regard to any kind of LIFE - no physical life before Adam and no spiritual life before Adam. The spiritual life of this seed is the object of God's purpose of election unto salvation and thus salvation according to God's eternal purpose. Hence, He is their "Father" previous to Adam only in the sense of ETERNAL PURPOSE not in the sense of any kind of actual preexistence to Adam.

 

Well, it is nice for a change that we can agree on some things - that is progress between us.

The washing and renewing work of the Holy Spirit of the human spirit completely sanctifies the human spirit - SAVED - and this is the "firstfruit" of salvation and obtains entrance into heaven as it is inseparable from justification through faith in the gospel as that is the immediate consequence of regeneration in the experience of the new born child of God.

However, there are two more aspects - tenses - of salvation still incomplete. There is the PRESENT TENSE and there is the FUTURE TENSE. The future tense concerns the human body and its redemption from the PRESENCE of indwelling sin and from all consequences of sin.

Your question concerns the PRESENT TENSE and "redeeming the time" (Eph. 5:17). Your question concerns our RESPONSIBILITY to "put off" the flesh and thus not walk after the flesh but "put on" the renewed spirit - the inward man and walk after the spirit. Your question concers the real object of this aspect of salvation - what is it - what is God accomplishing through it? What are we accomplishing in it? What is BEING SAVED PRESENTLY? Ephesians 5:17 says that we are "redeeming THE TIME" or making it count for God's glory and this is done through submission to the Spirit (Eph. 5:18). If the TIME is not redeemed by submission to the Spirit then it is LOST. Every aspect of TIME lived in sin is LOST forever while every aspect of TIME lived for the glory of God through submission to the Spirit is SAVED - REDEEMED and made to count for God forever.

This saving and losing represents the "house" or life we build upon "the rock" foundation (Mt. 7:24-29; 1 Cor. 3:11-15) and in regard to the future we either gain rewards or "suffer loss" but not the loss of entrance into heaven or the loss of our "soul." We presently suffer loss of fellowship, usefulness, peace, advancement in spiritual growth, as long as we continue in unrepentance.

In regard to Luke 13 and the specific texts you ask about, they concern Israel as a nation not individuals. Israel is God's elect - "mine elect" and like all of God's elect they are born into this world and have an earthly "father" (abraham) and come into this world with a rebellious and sinful nature (the whole period of their existence up to the present day) until the appointed time of their salvation (at the coming of Christ - Rom. 11:26; Rev. 1:7; Zech. 12:10). During that period of rebellion they suffer the consequences of their sins and Luke 13 refers to such consequences during the period of their rejection of Christ which period they still are continuing in. Babylonian captivity was such a consequence. Roman destruction of Jerusalem and scattering them into all the world was a consequence. Persecution under Hitler was a consequence and presently their dire straits in the Middle east is a consequence. Luke 13 speaks of such consequences due to their rejection of their Messiah at FIRST coming to them but Matthew 23 He tells them they will not see him henceforth until He comes again and then they will say:

Mt. 23:39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

 

Abraham and Lot represent the two extremes of life saved versus life lost in regard to persons who go to heaven. Abraham is the example of faithfulness while lot is the example of unfaithfulness. Indeed, it is hard to find anything in the life of Lot that can be commended and yet Peter long after the death of Lot says that he was a "righteous man" and that his "righteous soul" was VEXED. The recorded life of Lot provides an example of one who failed to "put on" the Spirit as one who walked more in the flesh. Abraham's recorded life is an example of one who put on the Spirit more than walking after the flesh.

How was Lot regarded as "righteous" then? His inward new man was created in true holiness and righteousness and thus was "vexed" concerning his own unfaithfulness and those around him. His legal position before God was "righteous" because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. However, the character of the balance of His recorded life, the recorded TIME he lived is more characteristic of unfaithfulness than faithfulness. Peter could only refer to the vexation of his "heart" rather than provide any example of faithfulness in his outer life. Here are the two extremes and most of God's people find themselves somewhere in between Abraham and Lot but there are no sinless saints.

However, Lot is an example of the condition, consequences of any child of God who follows his example - the consequences are terrible and INNER VEXATION is the results. No child of God can live like Lot and be happy or avoid terrible consequences as no true child of God can get away with sin but whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth and chastening is no fun.

 

You reference Luke 13:34-35 but quote from another gospel account. I was responding to Luke 13:34-35.

However, in regard to the text you quote. Who uses salt? What is salt used for? I believe Jesus is talking about the influence of their lives upon men and either they will be "light" to men so that men may glorify God for their good works or they will be worthless to men if they hide their light under a candle or lose the design that salt is to provide! Look at Lot in Sodom! He lost his influence and there was no respect showed him by those in Sodom.

 

I was referrencing on that vers not Luke 13:34-35 but Luke 14:34-35. It I had the Typo. However, I still have questions. Which I'll bring up in the next post.

 

Yes it is

However, reviewing what you said I do take exception to a certain point because I don't know how you maintain that

and hold to

for if we are in the afformentioned state after Justification has done its regenerated work, How then can we be "completely sanctified". I venture that we are not. And we are not living in our salvation. I am having a difficult time reconsiling "Salvation" as being a "First Fruit" When in truth we've not yet attained it (actually being in heaven) until after our death. As you suggest we do in this quote.

In otherwords you suggest the immediate consiquence is salvation entire with Heaven all ready attained yet in reality we aren't in heaven but here on earth.
Your suggestion is that upon initial Justification we are sanctified yet we can loose all benefits of salvation except certainty of everlasting life if we do not redeem the time. So, in theory I can fore go Eph 2:10. And become a murderer, rapist, swindler, etc... while I live selfishly with no worries save having to deal with the conscience of my new nature and what ever earthly consiquence God may dispence due to my bad behavior but rest assured in eternity in heaven because I Have (Past tense initial justification) already been sanctified? Is this what you are saying? Because it seems this way when you state

So then in what sense do you mean

Certainly.

Which makes me ask the question I did previously?

I disagree. The specific text in Luke 13 has to do with individuals which is why Jesus shows specific instances of specific groups. Thus

is for each member hearing Jesus speach and not just the entire peoples of Judea.

a group mentioned out of all the Jews as being guilty for not repenting not the nation killed but those who did not repent. Which is his prelude to the Fig tree laying on each person the responsibility of what he is saying

It just doesn't seem to follow maybe you can explain it more.

 

Here is where my Trichotomy comes into view. I distinguish the human "spirit" from the human "soul." The soul is the area of progressive sanctification whereas the spirit is the temple or dwelling place of the Holy Spirit and therefore has been created in true holiness and righteousness. It is the inclination of the human spirit that we are to "put on" in the soul or in our thinking, feeling and choosing.

The gift of the Holy Spirit is the "firstfruit" (Rom. 8:23) of our future salvation or the "ernest" that we shall enter heaven (2 Cor. 1:20). The dwelling place within the human nature is the human "spirit" and it is the human "spirit" that is born of the Spirit (Jn. 3:6) and created in true holiness and righteousness so that God can dwell there without sin as God cannot dwell in a defiled sanctuary.

Yes! We now have "eternal life" and we "shall not come into condemnation" in regard to eternal judgement all because of Christ's obedience to the Law and full satisfaction of all the laws' demands both for sin and for righteousness.

The human "spirit" is created in TRUE holiness and righteousness and is completely washed from all its corruption but that is not true of the human soul or body. It is not the "benefits" of salvation that we can lose, but the EXPERIENCE of those benefits we can TEMPORARILY lose so long as we continue in sin. Rewards for the time lived in sin are forever lost.

First, children of God did murder (David) and comit adultery (David) among many other sins. However, no TRUE child of God can live in sin and be happy or get away with it as there are both temporal and eternal consequences for doing so. One temporary consequence that abides just as long as one continues in sin is MISERY - Lot's righteous heart was "VEXED." No child of God can escape CHASTENING for sins and chastening is never pleasant. The internal misery is due to the fact that part of your nature is HOLY and cannot bear sin and thus produces INNER CONFLICT in the soul which is between the renewed nature and indwelling sin. Furthermore, the inclination of the soul toward righteousness does not change even when we sin and that in part is the cause of inner vexation.

Hence, there is no such thing as a true child of God that can continue to live in sin without vexation and temporal and eternal consequences. However, satisfaction of God's law both to its penalty and righteous standard for obtaining heaven and eternal life has been obtained by Christ and the life and death of Christ alone by faith. Our own life previous to faith has nothing to do with satisfying the law or obtaining eternal life and heaven and neither does it after faith. Our life after faith is all about "redeeming the time" and bringing glory to God and progressively EXPERIENCING now the salvation that we have obtained.

 

This is about as far from the Biblical teaching of the new birth as one can get.

If you are born once you will die twice.
If you are born twice you will die once.
You must be born again.

"The regenerated seed of Christ" I don't think so. ..."with all of his seed with him" No, far from the truth of Scripture. God is not the God of confusion.

 

BTW I don't see how this is a Trichotomy so much as a Dichotomy.

More explination please. It seems to me you are saying God compartmentalized our Spirit into two sections - one that is always sanctified and always a habitation for God what you call the human Spirit and the other that maintains corruption which wars with the other or Human Soul? Is this what you are saying?

So No perseverance required?

So only this part of us is "saved"?

Yes and he also repented and never did it again. Doesn't match with my senario.

So the only check and balance God has provided us to follow in his statutes is vexation? Some people I know will allow for continual missery if only to satisfy their carnal needs which provide pleasure for a season. If they know heaven is guaranteed then they can deal with missery for momentary satisfaction of their sins. This seems a poor offering. But maybe there is something I don't understand that you have explained. I tend to think God made us a certain way. We fell. He redeems us emphasising the word redeemed or put back as we were before where we can live rightly and please him from that initial point. It seems to me, and I may be wrong, that in your view God doesn't restore us but sections off a piece of ourselves for eternity and whether we redeem the time or not only matters in the number of gold stars (gold crowns?) we get when the consumation of all things occur. At which only then we will be restored. If I'm wrong please elaborate for my understanding.