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Ye must be born again !

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Jun 24, 2011.

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  1. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    The Washing of Regeneration !



    Titus 3:5

    5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Now again, the view I have been sharing is making a distinction between regeneration and the new birth or being born again or born from above.

    Regeneration is collectively having to do with all the members of Christ seed, that He is the Head of, The Church, and regeneration occurred when they in Him, were raised up together from the Dead. Eph 2:6 and Isa 26:19.

    As Jesus was begotten from the dead Rev 1:5, so where they, His death to the Law was their death also. Rom 7:4a

    Now, what occurred when Christ died for His seed ? A washing took place. Rev 1:5

    5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    You see that ? Having Loved us and washed us, this is collectively all at once John is speaking of. This washing took place with Christ blood.

    I believe this is the same washing of Titus 3:5, the washing of regeneration. The word for washing here is the greek word loutron and means:

    bathing, bath, the act of bathing


    And it's from the root word louō which means:

    to bathe, wash

    And is the same word used in Rev 1:5 for wash.

    Loutron the word in Titus 3:5 is also used for the washing described in Eph 5:26

    26That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

    Notice also that the word washing of water by the word. Notice how the word is said to be washing, so this is not water baptism, but its the water of the Word.

    The word water is the same word used in Jn 3:5 and its usage there is primarily in the same subject manner as here.

    Also, it is stated, that after Christ resurrection, that before sitting down at the right hand of the Father, He had what ? Why, He had purified us from our sins. Heb 1:3

    3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

    This again is a corporate or collective purging of all the seed He represented. The word purge is the word katharismos and means:

    cleansing, purification, a ritual purgation or washing

    a) of the washing of the Jews before and after their meals

    b) of levitical purification of women after childbirth

    c) a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

    So again, a washing,a cleansing is being emphasized, and because its associated with the removal of guilt, blood must have been involved and redemption.

    So, this is regeneration, and its corporate, and has to do with the cleansing and washing from sin of all the elect seed in Christ, and this sets the stage for the New Birth which I will deal with next.
     
  2. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    The Trichotomy rather than the Dichotomy provides the answer to a couple of your objections. Your objection of compartmentalization. Your objection to part of the elect being saved.

    Even in a Dichotomy there are two distinct aspects and the body cannot possibly be regarded as "saved" in any sense nor can it be regarded as in possession of eternal life in any sense as it dies. The dichotomous view would have the soul schizophrenic and therefore not past tense "saved" only "being saved" at the most. Neither does the soul have in present possession "eternal life" or "created in true righteousness and holiness" as the soul in the dichotomous view cannot be so described as it is obviously flawed in regard to "true righteousness and holiness."

    Your description "our Spirit into two sections" fits the dichotomous schizophrenic view rather than the trichotomous view of body, soul and spirit. Just as the Godhead has three distinctions and yet inseparably one so also the human nature has three distinctions and yet inseparably one. More specifically the IMMATERIAL aspect of man which is spirit in substance just as God is spirit in substance is distinctly spirit versus soul.



    There is no personal perseverance in sinless perfection and therefore the only perseverance is in personal imperfection. Therefore if we put into a graph the present tense it would be a continuation in broken lines with uneven spaces between the dashes and no two children of God would possess the same length of spaces that separate the broken lines. For example take the record of the life of Abraham and place it along side the record of the life of Lot and the two are extremely different and there is no record that Lot repented prior to his death.

    However, the combination of the Indwelling Spirt (spiritual union); vexation of conscience, created internal desire to be righteous, chastening of God along with God's promise and providential intervention ("things that accompany salvation") prevent Lot from being compared to Pharoah. As along as you believe the "life" of Lot is not only essential to obtain eternal justification/entrance into heaven but inclusive in obtaining eternal justification then you have no other option but to reject my position. According to my position my life either previous to or after regeneration has absolutely nothing to do with obtaining eternal justification or entrance into heaven but that the life and death of Christ alone obtains that. In contrast my life is never perfect and what progress of sanctification is obtained is due soley to the measure of grace God bestows which is according to His eternal purpose/design for me to be born, live and die. In addition, that measure of sanctification simply determines my own present experience of eternal salvation and eternal rewards in heaven.

    Because this aspect of my nature is completely "saved" due to its eternal union with God the Holy Spirit through regeneration it guarantees a present experience of progressive sanctification of my soul according to God's measure of grace that comes with unalterable and complete glorification at the resurrection when Christ comes again.

    It is one thing to say Lot's righteous heart was "vexed" and completely another thing to say he repented and never sinned again. Is this what you find in the last written record of his life in the book of Genesis?


    Vexation is the consequence of an unchanagble state of the human spirit created in true righteousness and holiness in union with the Holy Spirit that alters the inclination of the soul to always choose righteousness but not always with power to empower that choice (Rom. 7:18-25).

    In addition, chastening by God is promised and therefore also accompanies such vexation. Chastening is progressive and accumulative as God will not allow any of His children to get away with sin even though they continue in that sin for prolonged periods of time. Physical death many times may be the accumulation of chastening.

    However, I think the real concept you are not grasping fully is that regeneration changes the inclination of the soul from a love of sin to a love for righteousnes (Rom. 7:22) but without power to enforce that choice (Rom. 7:25) or maintain the conscious love for righteousness. Hence, even in the act of sin, the inclination is being overpowered by indwelling sin (Rom. 7:17,22) and it is the love of sin that is temporary rather than abiding. Thus the soul experiences the sorrow over sin but always without power until and unless the Holy Spirit empowers that desire.
     
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

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    Uh, you'd better rethink this, Brother. If you wait until the last trumpet to be born again, you'll die lost. You need to be born again before the trump of God sounds.
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Ok lets see how you explain this.

    Just a couple of points here. First I believe that humans are made up of 3 Parts or that we like God are a triune being. We are body, Mind, and Spirit (Soul). it seems to me that you further select Spirit and make it two things that you differentiate Spirit and Soul. The Spirit being the only Regenerated aspect of the human being where the Mind, body and soul have yet to be redeemed. In my view God is in the process of redeeming us wholly in all three aspects and giving us a new nature is the begining of it. Note in my mind the "nature" crosses all aspects of humanity Body, mind, and spirit. The evidences for this is a renewed mind which we must "stay in christ" (vine branch allegory) or constantly keep renewing our mind as Paul teaches, and the future promise of a physcial resurrection for our bodies. However, it seems to me your saying regeneration only affects the human spirit.

    I hope I explain my view more clearly in the above statement. However, I'm honestly trying to understand what it is you are saying. So in what you have just stated it seems you agree humans are a triune however your differentiation is body, spirit, and soul being your make up. Which I think you can account for in the creation account - God made a body, beathed into him a spirit and man became a living soul. I think my "mind" aspect would be similar to soul wherein lies our reason and will. This being the case you further suggest that the Spirit is our substance and your meaning seems very Aristotlian the human spirit is the substance of them or the ultimate truth of being no matter what we see physically. And this "truth of being" and our eternal nature (my view once again) held in the Spirit you suggest is pitted against the soul? Is this what you are saying? I think the new nature flows in all three aspects and our soul (to use your description) wherein lies our will should be engaged in continual subjection to that new nature rather than continuing to feed the old one. Even as Paul says we must subject our bodies to this constant struggle against the old nature. But it seems that you're saying that taken for granted there is no battle because these two other aspects Body and Soul are a lost cause and there is no redemption for either. Is that what you are saying?


    It took me a while to understand what you are saying here. And to be honest I'm still not sure. But you seem to think that people only perserver if they are imperfect and its based on their imperfection and that if there is no imperfection there is no perserverance? Is that what you're saying? I don't think I buy that. Adam and Eve were perfect yet they could have perservered against Satan's temptation. They chose not to.

    I don't honestly know what you mean by Lot. However, Justification in my mind is God making man right with himself cannot be accomplished apart from the Merits of Jesus Alone and the Grace by which God alone bestows as he sees fit to redeem us wholly. Yet that does not exempt us from crying Abba Father and Grasping back towards God even as he reaches to pick us up rather than actively pushing him away. And with regards to Sanctification you seem to say it is not required of God that we are sanctified but it only provides a vehicle by which we can experience eternal rewards presently which you can easily for go if you choose? Is that what you mean?

    Again you seem to say only your spirit is completely saved and no matter what happens with your body and soul or the choices you make regarding your body and soul. Your spirit is eternally safe because its regenerated. Is this correct? So in the end your body and soul would needs be burned but your spirit will be ok? What about the resurrection?

    When I asked you the question I thought you were referring to King David not Lot. It was King David whom I had in mind of repentance. Lot I do not think killed. As far as Lots repentance I have no idea. It certainly doesn't seem that way. However, David did repent for ordering the death of his servant and stealing his wife and committing adultry which crimes I ennumerated previous to your reply.

    Since I believe the Soul (mind) has the faculty of reason and will that vexation is the consequence of a Soul (mind) being renewed by the New Nature given us by Jesus Christ throught the Holy Spirit. I believe we have the power to choose sin or not once we are given the new nature. The vexation comes when we disappoint that nature by our sinful choice.

    Which clearly shows we have the ability to choose what is right. God would be amiss if he punished us for something we had no control over.

    No I understand regeneration does change the inclination of the Soul and not only but the body and the Spirit. However, your explanation seems to indicate regeneration only affects one aspect of our make up. And that is what I'm trying to flush out to see if that is what you are saying or not.
     
  5. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    I am sorry, but I don't think you have answered my question. I had asked where in the verses you quoted it said that the new birth will not happen before the last trumpet.

    Your post above talks of bodily resurrection, the gathering of the elect, the Second Coming of Christ, and tribulation, but nothing about being born again.

    The only thing I can think of is that you and I have different ideas about what the new birth is.

    To me, it is impossible to be a Christian without being born again. Without that second (spiritual) birth, we are spiritually dead. If we are spiritually dead, then we cannot serve the living God in any way.

    Does that perhaps make my earlier question a bit clearer?
     
  6. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    I have been born again, but I have much to look forward to, to hope for. Meeting my Saviour. Going to heaven, where there is no sin, no sorrow, no temptation. And much more besides. None of these things can be seen now.

    I have never heard of the teaching you are suggesting, that there is no new life in Christ, no being saved, until the last trumpet sounds.
     
  7. David Lamb

    David Lamb Active Member

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    I had hoped I might get a clue as to where you are coming from with these (to me) strange ideas by looking at your public profile. But it only tells me that you are somewhere on eath, that you consider yourself Christian, and that you are a member of a church called, "made without hands". A google search brought up a church building in Thessaloniki, Greece, called the Achiropiiti ("Made without hands") church, but I domehow doubt that is what you mean.
     
  8. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    Renewing of the Holy Ghost = New Birth -



    Titus 3:5

    5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    After and following and connected with the Regeneration [The washing by the blood of Christ] comes the renewing of the Holy Ghost, or the New Birth. The New Birth of the individual is based on the washing of regeneration or simply out, Christ Blood, they having been purged [legally] from the guilt of their sins that had been laid upon Christ. Let's look again at this purging Heb 1:3

    3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our[collectively] sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

    This word purged is the greek word katharismos and means:

    cleansing, purification, a ritual purgation or washing

    a) of the washing of the Jews before and after their meals

    b) of levitical purification of women after childbirth

    c) a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

    Notice that it states, its a expiatory sacrifice. What does that mean ? It means to make amends, to atone, so its related to the atonement.

    The word atonement is used throughout the OT with that Ideal

    Its the word kaphar and it is translated many times as purge:

    Isa 6:7

    7And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

    So here its related to having sin taken away !

    Ps 79:9

    9Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

    So all those whose sins were purged by the blood of Christ, shall be renewed by the Holy Ghost, which is the New Birth. The word renewing is the greek word anakainōsis and means:

    a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better, Its from a root word which means to make new. To be changed into a new kind of Life.

    You see, because the person has been regenerated, has been forgiven of all legal guilt before God, A New Life which corresponds to their Justification by the blood of Christ, is given them, the New Birth. This New Birth is given to all for whom Christ died and rose again for. Remember Paul said of Him, who was delivered for our offences and raised for our Justification Rom 4:25

    All these shall be Born Again, born from above where Christ sitteth on the Right Hand of God !
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The new birth (or being born again) is not a future event.
    You must be born again (present tense--an imperative command).
    It means right now you must be born again, or else!!!

    If one is not born again his destiny is an eternity in hell which will eventually be the lake of fire (Rev.20:11-15).
     
  10. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk:

    No its not, its a present tense indicative.
     
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. (John 3:3)

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (John 3:5)

    Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:7)

    Three times Jesus said you must be born again.
    In the first he put a conditional clause with it. Except (unless, if), that is to say: IF you are not born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God. There is a condition there. If you want to go to heaven; see the kingdom of God; you need to be born again.

    Secondly, Except: If you are not born of water and of the Spirit you cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. The same condition is put forth.

    Third. It is a straightforward command: You must be born again.

    Three times Jesus tells us the same thing. Not one of them is future. All of them are put as a command, or a very strong warning.
    Nicodemus I am warning you--If you are not born again, you will never see the kingdom of God.
    --That is a strong, strong warning. It is imperative that one be born again.
     
  12. savedbymercy

    savedbymercy New Member

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    dhk:

    Its not an imperative, its in the indicative mood. Its something that is going to happen, it must happen, because of what Christ accomplished for the ones it will happen to on the cross.

    But if you wanna believe its a command to be born again, be my guest, you just don't have scripture to back you up.
     
  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I have the entire passage of John 3:1-13. Jesus was telling Nicodemus what he must do NOW, not in the future. The entire story would not make any sense if it was in the future. Jesus was telling Nicodemus what must be done in order to enter heaven. If you don't understand that from the passage you need to study it more.
     
  14. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    But it is a command that every man repent. Acts 17:30.
     
  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Do not derail this topic!
    Read the title of the thread. "You must be born again."
     
  16. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    Nicodemus is taught the need of regeneration, but there is no evidence in this passage that he actually bowed the knee.

    Obviously the action of regeneration is always now, but the conversation can also be futurist. We know by other scriptures that Nicodemus was eventually saved, and it is thought that his tomb was used for the body of Jesus.....profane history.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  17. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    Repentance is part of being born-again, thus, it is not derailing this thread.
     
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    The indicative is an assertation of fact, what DHK stated. To see the kingdom you must be born again. What is your point?
     
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is evident that Jesus was talking in the present, and telling what he must presently do, not what he must do sometime in the future. It is also evident from other Scripture that he became a "secret believer"; one believing in Christ but afraid to speak out because he was a member of the Sanhedrin.
    But first look at some of these Scriptures:

    9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
    --Nicodemus wants to know about the present, about what Jesus has been speaking about now.

    10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
    --This is a rebuke from Jesus. Nicodemus was a highly educated man, and knew the OT well. He should have known these things.

    11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
    --Here Jesus says plainly "we" (used for emphasis) speak what we do know, and testify of what we have seen. This is evidence of things already evidenced or known. The new birth was something that could be experienced right there and then. It wasn't some mystical experience that no one had had and was yet still future.

    12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? (John 3:9-12)
    --Again, he has told him using illustrations of earthly things. Nicodemus did not understand him.
     
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    An assumption (no doubt Calvinistic) that you have made. It is no where mentioned in the text of John 3:1-13. Thus there is no need to bring it up.
     
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