Yos can't lose salvation!

I agree, but what does this have to do with whether or not a person can choose to leave the Father willingly?

 

I thought I would post some verses in reference to OSAS that I have discussed before in another Christian forum. I am sure that those that believe in OSAS will have an explanation for why these verses do not speak against OSAS. I will be interested to see if any new explanations are offered that I have not heard before.

Matthew 24:10 - At that time many will fall away - [implies this is referring to believers since one cannot fall from a position if he was never in that position in the first place] - and will betray one another and hate one another.

Luke 8:13 - "Those on the rocky soil are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no firm root; they believe for a while, and in time of temptation fall away - [saying they "believe" implies that these are people who do become believers (Christians) but it does not last since it says they "fall away"].

1 Timothy 4:1 - But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, - [addressing believers (Christians) since these people were obviously in the "faith" as they could not have fell from it otherwise] - paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons

Hebrews 3:12 - Take care, brethren - [again, referring to believers], - that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. - [why warn these people of the possibility of them getting an evil, unbelieving heart and of falling away if it would be impossible for them to do so?]

Hebrews 6:4-6 - 4For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6and then have fallen away - [addressing believers and says that they can fall away], - it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

2 Peter 3:17 - You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, - [context implies that believers are being addressed - they cannot fall from their own steadfastness unless they are in a position to fall from steadfastness in the first place]

Galatians 5:18-22 - 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. 19Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, 21envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. - [why is it assumed that a person that once professed faith in Jesus as Savior is exempt from this warning?]

Revelation 21:7-9 - 7" He who overcomes will inherit these things - [seems to be implying that one must overcome to inherit;
why even mention having to overcome to inherit if once one is saved he is guaranteed to always be saved?] -, and I will be his God and he will be My son. 8"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Hebrews 3
1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, - [referencing believers] - consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.
5Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later;
6but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house--whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
7Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
8DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
9WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
10"THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';
11AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.'"
12Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. - [this verse is addressing brethren (believers) and says that falling away is a possibility]
13But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, - [the word, "if", means that it is possible that a believer could not hold fast in which case, as this says, the person will no longer be a partaker of Christ] - 15while it is said,
"TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS, AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME."
16For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses?
17And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness?
18And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient?
19So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief . - [this is comparing a Christian’s walk with Jesus to the Jews' walk with God in the wilderness - because of their unbelief they were denied access to His rest - it also equates their disobedience to their unbelief - this seems then to be implying that if a believer is disobedient and has unbelief (or that disobedience would be a sign that the person would be in unbelief), he will not be able to enter into God's rest which seems like a reference to eternity with God]

Colossians 1:21-23 - 21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, 22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach-- [shows that this is addressing believers] 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. - [Note that according to verse 23, it gives the condition that one must continue in the faith in order to be presented before Him holy and blameless.]

I Timothy 1:18-19 - 18This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, 19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. - [best to see this as referencing believers since a person cannot suffer shipwreck of his faith if he was not in the faith to begin with.

Romans 11:17-22 - 17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, - [talking about believers] 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Also, I would like to ask something. Those that believe the Bible teaches OSAS believe that those that believe it teaches otherwise are mistaken. Why would anyone want the Bible to not teach OSAS? I would venture a guess that some or most that do not believe in OSAS would like for it to be true (if not for themselves, then for loved ones that they have seen profess to be a Christian, show fruit, then fall away and die in that state). I do not read the Bible and do my best to find that it does not teach OSAS. I read it to find what it does teach about salvation. If I thought that OSAS was what was taught in Scripture, I would proclaim this, teach this, and defend it. However, from all that I have read, I do not see this. I see many warnings in Scripture against falling away. I see conditional statements regarding salvation... (if/then). I understand why people would want OSAS to be the correct teaching, but, for those that believe in OSAS, why would you think people would not want the Bible to teach OSAS?

 

I've read verse 17 and 18 and all the rest.

You might do well to read the Greek, or at least look at an etymological history of the word and see what it meant when the KJV translators use it: It means "judge".

Condemn is κατακρίνω, which is not used by John. The verb κρίνω means, originally, to separate. Homer used it of Ceres separating the grain from the chaff (“Iliad,” v. 501). Therefore, it means to distinguish, to pick out, to be of opinion, to judge.

The Messiah does judge the world as Jesus taught (see Matthew 25:31 and John 5:27), but this was not the primary or the only purpose of his coming.

Now, back to John 3:16:

If I read you correctly, you believe in salvational security. So do I. And, I don't think there are exceptions. If there are, then there are contradictions in Scripture (which there are none) and if there are contradictions, the Bible is worthless.

But, if you apply "perish" to going to the lake of fire forever, which is what I assume you mean by "hell", then there's a problem. It says that those who are believing (present, active, participle) might not perish (subjunctive). What happens if they stop believing? They might perish. It also says that those who are believing (remember, present, active) might (subjunctive; might not) have life aionian.

Another problem is that in order to perish, you have to have life to begin with. A dead person cannot die; only a living person can. Unsaved people are already dead.

So, how does this fit in with security?

 

Some questions for you:

What is "hell"?

Does "Judgment" always have a negative connotation? If not, why do you assume it does in this instance?

What if those who believe in the present tense quit believing?

 

What relevance does this question have with what I asked?

If someone could not name anyone that was saved, would this mean that the Bible does not teach that people can be saved?

I could also ask you if you could name anyone that appeared to be saved, but turned out to be "never saved to begin with"?

By the way, if you give Judas as an example, I am sure you already know that others will argue that one possibility with him is that he was saved and then fell from grace.

 

Arminians who argue that one can "lose" salvation are barking up the wrong tree. Then again, those who take the position of "Perseverance of the Saints" or "once Saved Always Saved" also have some significant problems to deal with.

A more proper term that Reformed Arminians use is "forfeit." In other words, RA's posit the idea of "the Possibility of Apostasy." They DO NOT believe in the CERTAINY of apostasy (falling away), nor do RA's accept the ludicrous idea of "repeated regeneration (that one can be saved/lost/saved/lost/saved/lost over and over again.

OSAS insists that a believer, once saved, does not retain free will, and WILL persist in FAITH. Now, this is consistent, if one is a 5-point Calvinist. But if one affirms the idea of a "free will" and "general atonement," to then insist on OSAS with no regard to the possibility that one can cease to have "faith" -- to trust in Christ -- is contradictory.

On the other hand, the concept of "repeated regeneration" has no Biblical or realistic concept of the meaning of God's grace. To believe that if one commits a sin that he or she is "no longer saved," or that their very salvation is threatened, puts a believer in the position of eternal insecurity. That, most certainly, is not the will of God.

RA's affirm the Security of the Believer. The emphasis is on the BELIEVER. One who has professed faith but then turned away from that faith cannot be assumed to be saved, even though they deny Christ presently. Just the same, one who professes Christ, yet turns back to a sinful lifestyle, cannot be assured of their salvation -- for there is NO SECURITY IN SIN. I trust we can ALL agree that there is no security in sin?

Now, some who believe in OSAS will insist that if one turns back to sin or turns away from the faith, that they were never really saved in the first place. My response to that is, well, okay -- either way, their position and their fate is the same. We should regard them as lost, and try to win them. The Holy SPirit will deal with them rightly and justly...

JDale

 

David Roy Elias - my dad.

have you read ANYthing i've said?

 

I too believe that "forfeit" is the correct term rather than "lose".

Is the Reformed Arminian view the one that says that once a person that was saved turns away from Christ, he is forever lost? My family and I used to attended a Free-Will Baptist church that believed this.

 

This bears repeating since no one had addressed it:

Those that believe the Bible teaches OSAS believe that those that believe it teaches otherwise are mistaken. Why would anyone want the Bible to not teach OSAS? I would venture a guess that some or most that do not believe in OSAS would like for it to be true (if not for themselves, then for loved ones that they have seen profess to be a Christian, show fruit, then fall away and die in that state). I do not read the Bible and do my best to find that it does not teach OSAS. I read it to find what it does teach about salvation. If I thought that OSAS was what was taught in Scripture, I would proclaim this, teach this, and defend it. However, from all that I have read, I do not see this. I see many warnings in Scripture against falling away. I see conditional statements regarding salvation... (if/then). I understand why people would want OSAS to be the correct teaching, but, for those that believe in OSAS, why would you think people would not want the Bible to teach OSAS?

 

That's correct. I was an FWB Minister for 17+ years, so I guess you could say I'm familiar with this topic

Where'd you attend a FWB church?

JDale

 

does the "true and false conversion" discussion come into play at all here?

 

I certianly think it can. Many who are regarded to have "backslid," or "fallen away" or "apostasized" were actually never really saved in the first place. I don't think, however, that is ALWAYS the case. There are examples in Scripture that would indicate otherwise.

JDale

 

drfuss: In the book "Four views on Eternal Security", one of the views was 'Reformed Arminian' wirtten by a Free-Will Baptist theologian. He believed that one who turns away from Christ is forever lost. However, there are other Christians who believe you can forfeit you salvation, that do not hold the forever lost belief.

From my experience, there are three reasons why OSAS Christians will continue to believe in OSAS:

1. As you pointed out, it is an attractive belief.

2. Almost all OSAS Christians have been taught OSAS over and over again since they became Christians, which is usually for many years. Each Bible study quarterly in my SBC church has something in it to reinforce OSAS.

3. Christians saved in an OSAS church are told that OSAS is a part of their salvation, i.e. if they don't believe in OSAS, they won't know for sure if they are saved. However, Christians who don't believe in OSAS are just as sure and secure in their salvation as the OSAS believers.

JDale writes:
"Now, some who believe in OSAS will insist that if one turns back to sin or turns away from the faith, that they were never really saved in the first place. My response to that is, well, okay -- either way, their position and their fate is the same. We should regard them as lost, and try to win them. The Holy SPirit will deal with them rightly and justly..."

drfuss: Good point, JDale. The practical difference between OSAS and the "possibility of forfeiting your salvation" belief is primarily a play on words.