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Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by All about Grace, Sep 26, 2005.

  1. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    You know who I am talking about ... those card-carrying members of the "if you are not a Calvinist - you are not spiritual" club. They showed up at our worship environment yesterday with their "Reformation" Bible and "hello my name is Bob -- where do you stand on the sovereignty of God" spirit. I was very nice to them and informed them quickly that we tend to focus on actually telling people about Christ and trying to help the average Joe & Jane in our crowd to understand what it means to live the everyday Christian life in 2005.

    These guys drive me nuts some times. I love them in Christ and I can usually aritculate their position better than they can but sometimes I sure wish they would move to some island where they could sit around and defend their human system and not worry about the multitudes of unbelievers around them. It would sure make life easier for us "shallow" guys that just want to see people transformed into passionate followers of Jesus Christ.

    I am glad I turned in my card a few years ago and starting focusing on real people with real needs who need a real witness about a real faith.

    Sorry for the outburst. I am climbing off my soapbox now.
     
  2. sovgrace79

    sovgrace79 New Member

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    This could probably apply to many doctrines. I sometimes get impatient with those who become obnoxious over one specific doctine, but I lovingly try to show them that there are other things which are more important.

    That being said, I am a five-point Calvinist (you might figure that from my alias). However, I do preach the gospel, and in my sermon yesterday, I urged those who have not trusted in Christ to believe in Him. While I am very settled on Calvinistic theology, I have many friends and family members who are not. It doesn't really bother me and we agree to disagree on that.
     
  3. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    Was Calvin a Calvinist?
     
  4. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 New Member

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    No..I think John Calvin was French.

    [​IMG]
     
  5. whatever

    whatever New Member

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    Maybe those guys are also "real people with real needs who need a real witness about a real faith." It almost seems that you had more compassion for those not at your church than you had for those who God placed in your path.

    I think I also detected a little Bible envy going on too. [​IMG]
     
  6. King James Bond

    King James Bond New Member

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    All about Grace,

    It is ok, I forgive you.

    I know that many people have a very blurry understanding of God, fellow man, and Biblical doctrine. I am sure one day you will find it is ALL about His grace.

    I would suggest people do a small study on the Huguenots.
    http://modena.intergate.ca/personal/dconrad/huguenot.htm

    As far as I know these people were some of the very first to use what is known as "Bible tracts" because of their deep concern for the souls of native Americans (Canadians). They were what many would call "Calvinists".

    Many "reformed" peoples have put together fine and outstanding confessions of faith.

    I would suggest reading the preface to the Belgic and French confessions.

    http://www.creeds.net/belgic/index.htm

    http://www.creeds.net/reformed/frconf.htm

    I really hope people take a small amount of time from their busy days of slander, anomosity, and false accusations to gain a true perspective on truth.

    God bless and regards, KJB

    Please elaborate on "focus on actually telling people about Christ and trying to help the average Joe & Jane in our crowd to understand what it means to live the everyday Christian life in 2005."
     
  7. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member

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    You're wrong, you know. John Calvin was actually a Filipino, pretending to be German. :D

    I hope I don't offend one of our smart historisns here for this clumsy attempt at brevity.
     
  8. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    What's a "worship environment?"
     
  9. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    What do folks usually bring to a "worship environment?"
     
  10. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    I wonder if I would be so quickly labeled if I showed up at a "worship environment" carrying a copy of The Purpose Driven Life...

    ...and no Bible.
     
  11. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    There is a lot of truth in at least part of this statement.
     
  12. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    Self explanatory.

    What needs explaining?
     
  13. All about Grace

    All about Grace New Member

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    A monergist would definitely ask this question.

    The people we reach and minister to usually bring a lot of hurts and spiritual needs.

    Only if some of the first words out of your mouth was a question regarding my "position" on the limits of the atonement...and then you would be properly identified as a card-carrying member.

    Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of internally focused churches that can minister effectively to those who tend to place knowledge over practice. We are simply not one of them.

    Been there - done that - left the building.
     
  14. TexasSky

    TexasSky Guest

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    "Limits of atonement". What an intesting phrase. I hadn't thought about it before, but it does seem to fit. Calvinists limit the atoning work of Christ.
     
  15. here now

    here now Member

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    Calvinists limit nothing.
    Calvinists do not have the ability to limit the atonement.

    Only God has the ability to limit.
     
  16. here now

    here now Member

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  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member

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    Did Christ die for the "non elect"?
    They sure try! The "L" petal is not found in the Bible.
     
  18. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    A monergist would definitely ask this question.

    If you are saying that monergists do not know worship, you have certainly been misinformed. Of course, if you are saying that monergists do not know the man-centered style of "worship" found in man-exalting, God-belittling environments today, then you would be correct. My point is asking where in scripture does the phrase "worship environment" come from. But I guess that's "placing knowledge over practice."

    The people we reach and minister to usually bring a lot of hurts and spiritual needs.

    It seems to me that your focus here is on making symptoms better, rather than treating the disease; kind of like a doctor who prescribes aspirin to make cancer not hurt, but sees treatment as too hard a medicine. Knowledge of a sovreign and all-sufficient God imparted to the hearers is a far-greater remedy for the soul than any superficial treatment of various felt-needs.

    Only if some of the first words out of your mouth was a question regarding my "position" on the limits of the atonement...and then you would be properly identified as a card-carrying member.

    So the only thing that I could do that would get me an unfavorable 'label' would be to make an inquiry about your stand on the relatively minor issue of the atonement? So helping SuzyQ get over the blues is the key function of the church; not displaying the glory of Christ in His redeeming work of purposefully taking away the sins of those granted to him by the Father.

    Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of internally focused churches that can minister effectively to those who tend to place knowledge over practice. We are simply not one of them.

    Knowledge is not antithetical to practice; knowledge fosters correct practice. A Godly practice grows out of Godly knowledge. A 'practice,' even one done in God's name, which is not based on a proper understanding of God and his Word is bound to be man-centered, shallow, insufficient, unhealthy-- even dangerous.

    </font>[/QUOTE]
     
  19. Monergist

    Monergist New Member

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    So exactly what did Christ's atoning work accomplish--

    The total and complete redemption for those for whom He died, or--

    Was His work limited to just making salvation POSSIBLE and not really saving anyone?
     
  20. 4His_glory

    4His_glory New Member

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    AAG,

    It sounds like you are what you describe. In other words, in your op it seemed as if you were the one who dispalyed an arrogant attitude and was rather condescending towards thoes of us who are Calvinistic.

    Perhaps the people who came to your "worship enviroment" (what is that anyway?) sincernly wanted to know what you believed about God's sovereingty.
     
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