You can almost always see them coming...

whatever,

I think that is a very good point you make there!

The reality of the entire situation (like you point out) is that many congregations are filled with what many people would call fence sitters.

With Christ there is really no such thing. People are either lost or found, regenerate or unregenerate.

So what we have now are congregations that are full of the unregenerate. Great! Lets pack our churches with unregenerate people.

It was like I was saying before......the new message is "Get people in". They do not care who or how or why....just get them in.

This pastor on here speaks as if every soul is important work for him and his church. But what if his congregation of believers were 100 total and 100 unbelievers came along.....would he now turn them away? What about the ratio system?

I do not even find that what he is doing is Biblical at all.

But we have pastors and congregations that call this good.

Some of these congregations are so messed up because in all reality how do they keep a running tab on a thirds system? Some of them are probably half packed full and choking on weeds.

It is nothing less than a pastor efforting to pull in wolves to infest a flock of sheep that he is suppose to feed and protect!

The world is the world, do not bring it in....go out in it.

It is wretched!

That is my cents worth on this entire topic. It is really too bad so many churches are like that.

I really agree with you on that also! So many churches are so infested and infected with unbelievers many of the Christians stop going. Why do they stop? Because they find that the congregation is no different than everything of the world. It is no different than being at work or on the street.

Some of these congregations are hardly even repairable. It is best to just start over!

I agree with you on your points and I do not agree with the pastor.

Regards, KJB

 

Of course. I've been making that distinction. I have no issue with your message, at least what I have heard of it from you.

Much of Acts is descriptive but some is prescriptive. It would really depend on which part of Acts you are talking about. We don't all go blind when converted, and we don't all start speaking in foreign languages, and people don't always get saved in batches of 3,000. But we do all (hopefully) continue in the Apostle's doctrine and fellowship and the breaking of bread and prayer. I'm not trying to weasel out of an answer, but it really does depend on the section.

I'd say that 1 Co. 14 was prescriptive for the church at Corinth, and that if we are going to not practice what Paul commanded them to do then we'd better have a really good reason.

No, but I do not know why it would be desirable.

No, but I see no Biblical reason that the primary weekly meeting of the church ought to be designed this way.

Hopefully.

 

AllaboutGrace,

And do you have evidence that most of what I say is rambling? Do you support or retract? You wrote to me that you hardly read 1/4 of what I write.

Do you think I am incapable to say I am sorry...... or incapable to make a stand for what I believe in?

If most of what I write is rambling, why would you care? If I am only a senile man that blabbers and rambles of non importance, what does it matter?

I thought to you this board is "entertainment".

Maybe to many others it is more of "In all that you do, do for the glory of God".

If I speak things that jab in your inner conscience, maybe you should sit still and meditate on such things.

You want evidence? Where am I to find evidence that you are to bring in and mix among the body of Christ a 1/3 portion of unbelievers to meet together and worship God? It does not exist.

The unbeliever has no mediator and thus should not be in worship meetings. The unregenerate are rejectors of Christ unless they have been brought to accept Him. Do you remember about casting pearls before swine?

Why would you, a pastor, have 1/3 of your congregation singing songs of praise to God if the words they sing are not in their hearts?

I am sure you have heard of the word "hypocrite".

You are to promote the worship of God and teach the flock in the church. It is not the place to evangilize.

"Come, let us worship and bow down; Let us kneel before the Lord our Maker. For He is our God, And we are the people of His pasture, and the sheep of His hand," (Psalm 95:6).

Why don't you take a real quick read through Acts 2 right now and do not delay.

When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day.

The Fellowship of the Believers
They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. All the believers were together and had everything in common. Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

The ones that accepted the message must have made a public cofession (been baptized) and they were added to their number.

I am aware that many church congregations actually have unbelievers in high positions. How dreadful.

For people to come into the church body to worship God they should at the very least profess that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior.

I still agree with whatever......preach to unbelievers on the outside. Preach the truth and forget all the other junk. If they care not, shake the dust.

Please show me the Biblical principle about bringing in a group of 1/3 unbelievers to a believers meeting of worship to God.

As in the Lord's supper, are they invited also? How do you keep tabs on them? Do you actually have someone asking and counting "unbelievers" at the door?

KJB

 

Certainly there were unbelievers there. When you read your Bible why do you think the Christians were accused of certain things?

When one starts a new church he hopes the majority are non-believers instead of church shoppers or hoppers. That is unless he is hoping to start a club of discontents.

 

I would like to add a comment concerning the dichotomy of "message" and "method." This is the heart of much error in the church today.

Historically, For Christians and particularly Baptists, the method is the message.

 

Would you care to explain what you mean by "gathering discontents"?

Nowhere have I suggested that you should do church in a way that will not reach unbelievers. It is obvious that I am unable to communicate, so maybe we should just drop it.

So then it comes down to a matter of time of the week and place for you -- </font>[/QUOTE]No, absolutely not. It comes down to purposes for the church gathering, and then dispersing. Again I am obviously failing to communicate.

 

AllaboutGrace,

I grasp, understand, comprehend, and see exactly what you are talking about!

I know what you are doing because you post it on here. I do not have to agree with the things you do, and I don't!

I read the things you write and I do not skip 3/4 of it.

I understand. I really do! And I do not agree with your method of madness!

If you think it is only me a dumb rambler that says so....I say no it is not.

It is the Word of God that says so and you are in disobedience.

I don't care if it makes you feel good, look good, makes you happy, fills your building, brings more revenue, tickles ears, or even if your end goal is noble.......you are not supposed to fill the Church (called out people of God) with a bunch of unbelievers.

I would beg of you for the sake of yourself and those under you to submit yourself and your flock to the Word of God.

If you do not like the things I ramble.......(and I know I can ramble)......submit yourselves to the following;

Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?

Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said,

"I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM;
AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE.
"Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord.
"AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN;
And I will welcome you.
"And I will be a father to you,
And you shall be sons and daughters to Me,"
Says the Lord Almighty.

Does that explain it enough or is that also something you wish to call ramble so you can reject it?

You really need to rethink on this issue. No fooling.

Regards, KJB

 

Yep, "sheep swapping" is our goal. Right. Would you care to explain how that presumption is not arrogant?

Then perhaps you can explain what you mean by this:

But I wish you would show me where the Bible says that the body of Christ is to come together in order to attract unbelievers into the meeting so that they can be won. The body of Christ comes together for prayer and communion and instruction in doctrine and practice, and then leaves to do ministry, which includes taking the gospel to the lost.

I am confused by the double-talk. Are you suggesting a church's evangelism strategy is reserved for "outside the walls" or not? </font>[/QUOTE]Do you really not know what "taking the gospel to the lost" means, or are you being purposely obtuse? Perhaps you can explain how you equate "a church taking the gospel to the lost" with "doing church in a way that will not reach unbelievers". There's your double-talk. "Doing church" is not just what happens when the believers gather. Church ought to be "done" every day. The NT pattern shows the believers going to where the lost are, not trying to attract them into meetings with other believers.

And so I ask again: is evangelism one of the purposes of the church gathering? </font>[/QUOTE]Again, as near as I can tell evangelism is one of the purposes for the church going, not gathering. The church gathers for instruction in righteousness, for training and correction, for equipping the saints for ministry, for fellowship and prayer and remembrance of Christ's death. The prescription in Scripture is "go into all the world", not "try to get the world to come".

I repeat, if you can make the case from scripture that evangelism is one of the purposes for the church to meet then I would love to hear it.

 

whatever,

You posted;

Good job! You have made many good points and you have demonstrated your position very well! You are very clear and do well to articulate what is on your mind.

I understand the points you make. You brought up a very valid point a few posts back when you quoted; 1 Cor 14:24-25

"But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in while everybody is prophesying, he will be convinced by all that he is a sinner and he will be judged by all, and the secrets of his heart will be laid bare. He will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, "God is really among you!"

If this system of thirds really works.....he should be getting a new third every meeting time!

Why? Because some would become believers and others would run out.

Unless his group of believers along with his sermons are not giving "Words of God". (prophesying)

You would think that the unbelievers would fall down and be convicted and join.....or run out as fast as they can!

But he admits these unbelievers stay in and among the group without being convicted!

Hardly a very convincing pastor! He should be speaking in such a way that they would either bow down....or run as fast as they could to join the world again.......unless of course his group resembles the world?

What was the Scripture on the blind leading the blind...don't they all fall into a ditch?

I am not trying to be mean spirited here.....but very bold and blunt!

This guy speaks better of all the unbelievers than he did of the Calvinists that came to his church. It is crazy!

I notice that the pastor seems to like Rick Warrens work. What happened to all the talk about people and them liking Calvin and his work?

"Human systems" was it?

The pastor said;

How about addressing and fixing real problems within the church! If people are discontent and they are real believers.....there are Biblical measures and steps to take to resolve such issues. It does not mean everybody will always agree.

And if real believers are discontent....first see if there are reasonable reasons for discontentment!

There are so many pastors that like to surround themselves only with "yes men".

These pastors do not want to teach people how to think....but rather what to think, and as long as everybody goes with the flow like dead fish floating down a river...the pastor is content!

Yes, the weeds really do infest the church body. It does not take long and they take hold and choke.

You can be certain that many of these pastors include these unbelievers in ALL kinds of worship, singing, prayer, Lord's supper, and many times they have unbelievers directing certain functions of the church.

Really amazing.

Regards, KJB

 

Notice what the church did and what God did in Acts 2:40-47, "And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!" So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls. They were continually devoting themselves to the apostles' teaching and to fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. Everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. And all those who had believed were together and had all things in common; and they [began] selling their property and possessions and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved."

Notice who were saved and who was hearing the message.

 

gb93433,

Exactly! You got it right!

So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

It is not backwards like the pastor wants it to be. The pastor calls in and adds unrepentant people, and then waits hoping someday these people repent. Absurd!

It should be, they receive the word (convicted and repent).....then they are baptized (confession) and then added (join the flock as full members).

Regards, KJB

 

What you say is short lived. Quite the opposite is true for true growth. 75% 0f Saddleback's membership has come from their work and ministry.

 

The problem is that many like their churches but would feel uncomfortable bringing a non-believer. I would not want to bring a non-believer to a service where one hour would be devoted to pleading for money and admonishing people to pledge.

When I pastored I seldom ever mentioned giving. Giving is a result of growing not a beggar standing up in front pleading for money. There are other times for that.