You can almost always see them coming...

AllaboutGrace,

All through the Bible giving is defended. So collections of "givings" is defended by God as good. We are to be givers.

You said;

I see your simple question as another one of those market ploys to tug on the heart strings of people.

From reading many of your posts and your own words it is easy to see what kind of teaching probably goes on in your church.

You say you do not dilute the Word of God or His message....I say you do.

Being a leader I would think instead of asking such questions you would rather teach the truth according to the Word of God.

I am not attacking your character here...I am only responding to the things you write yourself.

If people were to go back and read so many things of what you write.....they would see that you use lots of methods of enticement to the ears of people.

What I mean is you should be pleasing God and as you do so not ALL people will be pleased. As a matter of fact some people might leave. But if you are teaching plain truth in love......you have done nothing wrong even if everybody in the entire place got up and left.

You asked me earlier to defend my position. In case you missed it here are some Words of God again;

"Do not be bound together with unbelievers; for what partnership have righteousness and lawlessness, or what fellowship has light with darkness? Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, 'I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. Therefore, come out from their midst and be separate,' says the Lord. 'And do not touch what is unclean; And I will welcome you. And I will be a Father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to Me,' Says the Lord Almighty." (2 Corinthians 6:14-18).

"Therefore, do not be partakers with them; for you were formerly darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light." (Ephesians 5:7,8).

In our text, Paul uses five synonyms as he talks about the matter which helps us to understand what fellowship is.

a). Partnership (6:14). What partnership does righteousness have with lawlessness. The understood answer is "none!". The child of God must not engage in lawlessness, whether by himself or in partnership with another who will take him in that direction and exercise that kind of control over him (Romans (6:13,19).

b). Fellowship (6:14). What fellowship does light have with darkness? "None!". The two do not mix. We must not involve ourselves in a relationship that will darken our light! (Ephesians 5:5-12; John 3:19-21).

c). Harmony (6:15). What harmony exists between Christ and Belial? "None!". Christ and Satan are as opposed as can be. You'll never find the two harmonizing together.

d). In Common (6:15). What does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? "Nothing!". Spiritually speaking, they have different everythings. Purpose, goal, hope, lord, standard, and finally, eternal destiny.

e). Agreement (6:16). What agreement does the temple of God have with idols? "None!". Idolatry, in whatever form, is a horrible insult unto God. Believers are the temple of God (1 Corinthians 6:19,20). We must not be a part of a partnership that would require us to erect an idol in our heart.

I hope this helps you out.

There is simply no room for unbelievers in the church body.

Like I said before it does not matter how you feel, how full it makes the building, how much revenue it brings, how many might be close to converting, or all the other reasons you can pull out of your head.

People are added to the numbers as they are converted.

The entire flock should be Christians worshipping together, fellowshipping together, singing together, loving each other, learning, etc!

When you bring the world into the chapel, it becomes the same as the world outside the chapel.

This idea of packing a chapel with any amount of unbelievers waiting for them to convert is not healthy for the rest of the body.

You may avoid so many of my questions but they are still good questions that you just have no answer for.

Regards, KJB

 

1 Cor 14:23 So if the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues, and some who do not understand or some unbelievers come in...

1 Cor 14:24 But if an unbeliever or someone who does not understand comes in...

It would appear to be a strange thing for a non-Christian to be attending Church.

john.

 

AllaboutGrace,

So it seems you still want to respond to me. That is good, because I like you even though I still think you are dead wrong!

I happen to be firmly convicted that your idea of inviting a 1/3 portion of unbelievers into your congregation for normal Christian fellowship is dangerous and wrong.

Unless you are capable to convince me otherwise, I will stand up against your idea as long as you post it. I will stand firm and not waiver.

In as much as you have the right to post what you believe, so should others. I would suggest that if you are easily offended when people do not agree with your whacky ideas....maybe it is best to stop posting them.

I value your right to believe all the things you wish to believe. I really do. That does not mean I have to value all the things you believe!

If I can make your ideas and beliefs sound foolish.....maybe you should reconsider.....if you can make mine sound foolish...maybe I should.

Mormons believe that special underwear protects them from all sorts of evil things. While I value their right to believe that.....I do not value their belief.

The chapel should be a place where Christians can go to get out of the world for a while. It does not mean they stay there like it is some sort of permanent refuge like monks do. They are to work together to build each other up for the times they go out into the world.

A local church is usually equipped with all sorts of different gifted people that are able to fill all sorts of needs. The teachers and pastors should be real leaders. Good teachers and leaders are a real need also.

Pastors should stand up front for what is good....and explain why! They should teach their flock about all the evil things going on all over the world and they should promote the flock to make stands against evil in their own lives as well as things they may have control over.

I would think that a pastor should be a man of strength, firm in good solid Biblical conviction, bold, blunt, patient, and so many other qualities that are listed in the Bible.

They should also be gentle and capable of showing mercy. It should not matter how many degrees or years of school he has been through. What should matter is if he submits to the Word of God. A good follower makes a better leader!

I am fully aware that pastors are only people and not perfect. I am fully aware that they have needs, problems, hopes, ideas, times of sorrow and times of happiness.

I am aware that pastors are people and not God.

I am not saying unbelievers never come into churches. I know they do.

I am not saying we as Christians should mistreat them. I am all for treating them with respect. I am all for being kind to people and doing good to others. I am all for treating them as human beings made in the image and likeness of God.

If you were to invite unbelievers into your church it would be more plausable and proper not to beat around the bush and act as if they are some part of the flock.

It would be wiser to treat it as another meeting separate from normal Christian meetings. A different meeting altogether. Treat them as what they are. Like we once were, wretched, lost, sinners.

This would mean that if you invite some 1/3 amount of unbelievers on purpose it would not be a normal meeting of Christians to worship, pray, fellowship, partake of the Lord's supper, and ALL the other things pertaining to a Christian gathering.

It would be more for a peculiar meeting. One of strict, blunt, bold, and proper speaking of the truth to them. A meeting with 1/3 unbelievers should be properly focused.

Regards, KJB

 

I would have no problem with that. The question is, what will those unbelievers see and hear if they do attend?

Simple question for you: would you encourage Christians in their everyday living and witnessing to invite Calvinists to attend church with them?

 

How could there be? They are not believers. The Bible in Jude and other historical documents clearly indicate they were present at church meetings. Some became believers and others became trouble.

Jude 12, 13, "These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever."

 

Interesting you should say that. I have found many times it is the Christians who are afraid to hear much of the truth and are easily offended. The non-believers are not afraid to hear the straight stuff. I have seen many who have come to church the first time because things are not going very good and they are looking for answers or think it would be good to go to church.

Sometime read Surprising Insights from the Unchurched and Proven Ways to Reach Them
by Thom S. Rainer

Rainer interviewed many shortly after they became Christians and found that many expressed that they had gone to a chruch where the pastor said nothing with any conviction. They eventually came to a chruch where the pastor preached with conviction and passion.

Never once have I ever been given trouble in a church by non-believers. But when the chruch started to seriously grow it was always some believers who gave me trouble.

 

All kinds of people can have problems. Christians are still Christians though. Christians are not exempt from problems.

Non beleievers may hear the straight stuff (truth)....but they reject it! Thats why they are non beleivers.

Going to church can be a very good thing to do.

Without faith nothing is worth anything good, even going to church.

A person can go to church meetings for 60 years.....one day the person might want to boast about all kinds of things that he did like "I did this and I did that all in your name."

If Jesus Christ says;

"I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." What will the person do, storm down the gates of heaven to get in?

These people should not have to go into a church looking for answers.

If pastors were teaching their people properly (like using quality confessions of faith) their flock would have answers to give people in everyday life.

Thats why I said it would be good for Churches to start teaching from these basic principles again. I think it would be wonderful if Christians carried these around with them...with their Bibles and when people asked questions they would have REAL answers.

It is called "equipping the Saints".

Not watering down and catering and coddling unbelievers at the expense of believers.

Pastors should equip saints to go back into the world.....and not be of the world.....ready to give answers to defend their faith.

Now days you have pastors that are spineless, wishywashy cowards that do not stand and fight for what is right but rather hide and cower behind their pulpits and flock.

They do not make real stands for anything at all and fall for all kinds of things.

They might says a few words on the homosexuality issues that plague this country but you never hear of the tons and tons of problems that plague this nation as well as inside the congregations.

Shoplifting costs the people of USA billions and billions of dollars every year. Why? Because its not a great nation as all the politicians lead people to believe, it is a nation of unrepentant thieves!

The list could go on in regards to socialism. communism, porn industry, child abuse, elderly abuse, divorce, liquor industry, corruption in governmnet, and the list goes on and on.

Many congregations are full of people that are on welfare and disability plans of the government that are not really disabled and quite capable of work.

Do the pastors preach "those that do not work should not eat"? No they do not.

I am afraid that many of our leaders would rather make fun of the kinds of people that would go to a Church asking the congregation about a Sovereign God.

From our pulpits we have no more cries. No more strength from so many. They are all like jellyfish lest they offend the world or be offended.

There used to be a day when people would make a stand for what they believe in. They would defend the truth and stand for the truth until death!

Now we hear the battle cries of "toleration and diversity" and "let us agree to disagree".

Lest they loose their tax exempt status.

Poor stupid souls we have all become.

May Jesus Christ show mercy to us His weak church. We sure need it. We need strength again. His strength. Not to win the battles.....but at least to fight them!

KJB

 

All kinds of people can have problems. Christians are still Christians though. Christians are not exempt from problems.

Non beleievers may hear the straight stuff (truth)....but they reject it! Thats why they are non beleivers.

</font>[/QUOTE]They do not reject it when they become believers.

What would you do when the numbers of non-believers whop became Christians in the last two years far exceeds the number of believerrs who were there when you first came. A man I know had the same thing happen and they wanted him to leave as did they me in anotgher church I was pastoring.

During that time many believers complained about me requiring too much in the Bible studies. I do not lead Bible with no homework and turn them into SYI. It was the non-believers who became believers who became the major workers in the church who led others to Christ and told me they wanetd those Bible studies.

Too many church goers are lazy and want to be spoon fed baby food. .

 

I've already given a list. Here it is again: "The church gathers for instruction in righteousness, for training and correction, for equipping the saints for ministry, for fellowship and prayer and remembrance of Christ's death."

It was not an admission of anything. Apparently we continue to miscommunicate. If I were talking to an unbeliever who wanted to know more about the church then I would invite them to attend a service to see first-hand what goes on there. That has nothing to do with whether evangelism is a purpose for the church to gather.

Does it not make you uncomfortable that, by your own admission, unbelievers would be more comfortable in your services than some believers? I cannot fathom how that could be acceptable.

 

My wife and I attended a church for ten years that never passed the plate. They had boxes at the doors. It worked very well. Time was not taken for such things and giving was seldom mentioned but only once in a awhile being noted that there were boxed at the doors if you would like to give. People were told that giving was for regualr attenders only. The church always had money for ministry.

 

I have been known to make Christians squirm in their seats because they are disobedient while at the same time non-believers are coming to Christ in the same services.

After one service I preached at church a friend of mine was pastoring and having troubles. After the service he and I found the two troubles in the church. One of them became quite mad at me. I spoke on was Mt. 28:19,20. After that service several came to me and said that is what they needed to hear. Since that time the church has about tripled in attendance. For several years prior ot that it stayed the same.

It is when decisons need to be made that the disobedient become very uncomfortable and the obedient love it and are encourgaed.

I remember well leading a woman to Christ after a service when I visited her that afternoon. She told me that one week earlier she had gone to the church at the end of her street and they would not let her in because she wore pants and her hair was too short.

I don't even have to think or imagine for one second what Jesus would have thought of the Pharisees in that church.

People need to be brought to the point where they are ready to live for Jesus not just die for Him. Many say they will die for Him but not many are really living for Him.

 

I would simply suggest that people do exactly as All about Grace says and go through each page one by one reading all the posts again. From page 1 forward!

Be sure to start at the initial topic and see how well this man presents himself! You will see why a Calvinist would not be attracted to his congregation for a multitude of reasons.

One reason would be that this man puts on a facade with those "card carrying people" as he treats them nice while in his heart he holds other motives and dislikes of them.

As he claims he is focused on saving unbelievers and they are only distractions to him and others from such a goal he comes in here and his "entertainment" is making fun of them.

The man is probably like that with all people. He probably puts on some sort of facade with them treating them nice while in his heart he is saying to himself (not these card carrying Calvinists wanting to talk about God again distracting me).

How do I know this mans character? Because he posted what was in his heart on here.

The very first post he makes should be a perfect picture of the man that is engaged in debate with you today.

Although he will say he is focused on saving people you will find that he is in here and not at Wal-mart saving people!

According to him this is "entertainment".

So this man that claims people "distract him and those of us" that take his focus off of saving people is focused on entertaining himself!

Does the word hypocrite come to mind?

Don't forget to see him whine about having his character attacked while he says things like this to people;

Don't forget to read about how he finds that so many others look down upon people as you read how he looks up at all sorts of people.......oh and of course he does not debate about unfathomable truth like others do......actually he is not really on this board debating truths and distracting himself......he is focused on saving unblelievers.

Oh pleeeeeeeeese.

Actually while he is here on this board posting to what were his very own words "entertainment" he could actually be out and about doing like "those of us focused on unbelievers."

This man is the king of forked tongue!

Don't forget to read his posts on how he does not pin God down to human systems such as the (five points of Calvinism) but of course the (five purposes of Warrenism) are swell, fine and dandy!

Is this like double double double talk?

I suppose this man may not find the term Trinity in the Scriptures also. I would suppose that the Trinity is not a doctrine (teaching) in his church because the term is not found.

I suppose he can show us all where Rick Warren is found in the Scriptures?

This guy is pure doubletalk!

I do not have time to go through all of his posts over again and expose his double talk on so many subjects.

I would implore you all to go through the posts again. Character or double talk?

KJB

 

gb93433;

And who collected from the boxes? Nobody? Did they just sit there never being collected?

Giving is good. When people give there are collectors. Giving and receiving are doctrines that are defendable from Scripture.

Wow that is great! The question is do you squirm in your seat also?

Do you think you have anything of yourself going for you and your sins more than the believers do?

Other than the fact of the grace of God shown to you in Christ, should you not squirm with them also?

Christians should be squirming! Because they are convicted by the Word of God that they are sinners.

I hope you are as good at comforting as you are at squirming them.

It is always good to have a balance. Christians do struggle......some more than others.....but they have an advocate on their behalf.

Dear brothers and sisters, if another Christian is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path. And be careful not to fall into the same temptation yourself. Share each other's troubles and problems, and in this way obey the law of Christ. If you think you are too important to help someone in need, you are only fooling yourself. You are really a nobody.

EXACTLY! Great point there!

KJB

 

Would you kindly point out what it is that I have said that makes you think that I am advocating "dry music, irrelevant sermons, stuffy dress, meaningless rituals, etc."? I will repeat what I said earlier - I still think that you are missing or ignoring the gist of what I am saying and that you are arguing against something that I am not saying. When you say things like "They will see and hear authentic/passionate worship and truth presented in an engaging manner", I really am left wondering whether you think I am advocating inauthentic or listless worship, or half-truths presented in an insomnia-curing way.

To the point - worship must be designed for believers. Worship cannot be designed for unbelievers.

Actually, no. I do not deny that there are churches in whose services I would feel uncomfortable. I do deny that this is acceptable.