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You Fool!

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Paul33, Aug 25, 2005.

  1. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    **Edited for double post**

    [ August 28, 2005, 07:04 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
     
  2. James_Newman

    James_Newman New Member

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    So how come you don't just call me a fool? :confused:
     
  3. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    I thought death and hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

    I thought those who are given up of death and hell are those upon which the second death has power, and they too would be cast into the lake of fire.

    I know little about Grammar of the Hebrew language. but I agree with TCassidy. The Jews certainly expected the Messiah to fulfill the Law. This statement is certainly in the immediate context of Jesus' teaching regarding the calling a brother a fool.

    Do we remove various statements from our professors' lectures simply because they are in preceding or later paragraphs?
    :confused:
    Bro. Dallas [​IMG]
     
  4. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    In exegeting a passage of Scripture, we need to understand the passage in its original context. I doubt highly that the Pharisees thought Jesus was claiming to be the Messiah in Matthew 5. In fact he compliments their level of righteousness in v. 20. And then he shows them how they have twisted and distorted the law with six examples starting with "You have heard." He comes full circle by the time he reaches the sixth example. Example one begins with an admonition not to hate one's brother; example six ends with an admonition to love one's enemies.

    This discourse would not have been understood by the Pharisees in the way TC is postulating.
     
  5. SavedbyHISGrace

    SavedbyHISGrace New Member

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    The word in Matthew 5:22, is the Greek "moros", from where we get our English "moron". Joseph Thayer, in his Greek lexicon says that here it means: "impious, godless", which is a strong word to use for a brother who would have the Holy Spirit in them. It is interesting that the modern versions have omitted "without a cause", which was known to: Irenaeus, Origen, Cyprian, Basil, Augustine, Hilary, Old Latin, and a host of other textual witnesses. Why is this?
     
  6. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I don't see how this can refer to a brother with the HS in them, or to a Christian, since it's before Jesus' death and resurrection, and the giving of the HS to believers.

    In fact, I am wondering what is meant by "brother" in this context. Does it mean a fellow Jew, since Jesus was talking to the Jews? Maybe someone could comment on this.
     
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I believe it refers to a fellow Jew. The Council didn't care what you did or said to a Gentile. [​IMG]
     
  8. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    There may be an idiom involved in this passage in Matthew which we have lost sight of through the years. Go back to Matthew 5:13, where we read:

    "You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? it is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men."

    This may not seem to have relevance, but the phrase "loses its saltiness" is used FOUR times in the New Testament but only twice is it translated 'lose saltiness' (here and in the parallel passage in Luke 14). The other two times this phrase is used, it is used by Paul and translated "became fools" in Romans 1:22 and "made foolish" in 1 Cor. 1:20.

    Thus, salt may well have been an idiom for wisdom. And Jesus says if you lose wisdom, or 'saltiness' you cannot be made salty (or wise) again, but are fit only to be thrown out and trampled by men.

    Thus, although 'raca', meaning 'empty-headed' or even 'worthless' is a severe insult and thus could make one liable in court as slander or defamation, it may be that when Jesus was referring to the term meaning 'fool', especially since it is in the same discourse as the 'lose saltiness' section, He may have been referring to the judgment of a person's status in God's eyes -- a judgment we are warned not to make, for as we judge so are we to be judged.

    TCassidy's sarcasm aside, his appeal to context does not work here, for verse 22 is in the middle of a section dealing with relations among people and not between a person and Christ.

    I may easily be wrong about the appeal to an idiom here, but it might be something to think about.

    **Screen name edited by Blackbird**

    [ August 28, 2005, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
     
  9. SavedbyHISGrace

    SavedbyHISGrace New Member

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    I don't see how this can refer to a brother with the HS in them, or to a Christian, since it's before Jesus' death and resurrection, and the giving of the HS to believers.

    In fact, I am wondering what is meant by "brother" in this context. Does it mean a fellow Jew, since Jesus was talking to the Jews? Maybe someone could comment on this.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Marcia, I don't see how anyone can assume that this use of "brother" in verse 22, as refer to anyone other than a born-again Christian? It says at the opening verse of this chapter, that Jesus' disciples came unto Him, and He taught them. In verse 12 Jesus says, "rejoice, and be exceeding glad, for great is your reward in heaven". Are you saying that Jesus here refers this to the Jews? Are the Jews, who reject Jesus, referred to as, "the salt of the earth", "lights of the world"? Does the reference in verse 16, of "your Father Who is in heaven", refer to the Father of the unsaved Jews? There is no indication anywhere in this entire passage, to suggest that Jesus was not first and foremost speaking to His followers, that is, us. Way down in verse 45, Jesus says: "that you may be the children of your Father, Who is in heaven". And, "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Who is in heaven is perfect" (verse 48). Language for the unsaved? I have no doubt that what is said in verse 22, clearly refers to true Christians. There is no warrant from the context, to assume any different.
     
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Helen's sarcasm aside, she just said basically the same thing I did. The person who says "you fool" is lacking wisdom for, as the Psalmist says, "The fool has said in his heart, there is no God." To deny Who Jesus claimed to be in verse 17, which the Jews would understand as a claim to Messiahship, is the ultimate lack of wisdom or, "foolishness."

    **Screen names, boys and girls---Persons responding to posts please limit printing to screen names** Thank you!

    [ August 28, 2005, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: blackbird ]
     
  11. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Yes it is. That's why desiring your brother to be damned by God in the gehenna of fire by tagging him with the words, "You fool" is so serious.

    If Helen's "idiom" theory is correct, it supports the idea of accusing one of being worthless and damned by God.

    The context is still about murder, hate, and damnation.
     
  12. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Excuse me, TCassidy, but I referred to you by the name you post under. If you would kindly do the same for me, I would appreciate it.

    Nor were we saying the same things. The statement in Matthew which is the subject of this thread is not referring to calling Jesus a fool, but referring to calling another human being, presumably a fellow Christian, a fool, which may have been a euphamism for saying that he had lost his salvation and was going to hell.
     
  13. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    I would suggest that the subjects being referred to were fellow Jews.

    But I agree that the sermon applies to the disciples of Christ, and therefore to us as believers.
     
  14. Salamander

    Salamander New Member

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    I am very disturbed that any "Christian" board would allow the posting of the very offensive use of the two words in conjunction as this thread contains.

    I ask the thread to suddenly "disappear" before any further reproach occurs. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
     
  15. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Dear Brothers and Sisters,
    I agree with Salamander. I almost edited and changed the wording of Brother Paul33's original post when I read it, however, I didn't. This is my fault.

    I realize this is a Biblical topic and that what is being stated is the concept of codemnation (I would emphasize that fact to you Salamander).

    However, it has been made known that the use of the present language is an offense to Salamander, I altered the original post's wording and ask you to refrain from using the previous wording but to use 'condemn', condemned or condemnation.

    Thanks,
    Bro. Dallas Eaton
     
  16. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    In the context of "cussing", I would not appreciate nor tolerate such a phrase. But the way it was stated was most certainly NOT "cussing" but a declaration of fact.

    But it IS unnecessary to make something offensive here for certain sure, so appreciate the editing of the offending words.

    Of course you COULD have just changed it like most Christians do to the minced oath **** **** **. :rolleyes:
     
  17. Frogman

    Frogman <img src="http://www.churches.net/churches/fubc/Fr

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    Yes, But my thoughts are words to Him. (This is off-topic, but just a thought). There are some who are offended when we simply read the inspired words of the Bible. Why else the modern language of donkey ? ;)

    Thanks Bro. Bob.

    Bro. Dallas
     
  18. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Bro. Dallas' response is apparently typical of "some" in Christian circles who can't tolerate the graphic language of the OT or its use by Jesus the Messiah.

    We most definately are talking about murder, hatred and damnation.

    And that IS why saying "You fool" is so serious. Now how do we explain that to listeners in the 21st century. There is a reason why we as Christians appear to be the "Flanders" of the world. We get angry over the wrong things!

    Thanks for the assist Dr. Bob.
     
  19. Paul33

    Paul33 New Member

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    Salamander's misplaced anger, if he is not being satirical, is offensive to me. Do we now edit Salamander? ;)

    I'm embarrassed by fellow Christians who aren't mature enough or honest enough to distinguish the context in which things are stated.

    The graphic truth of God's Word is so toned down in our churches today that folks who are on their fifth divorce or third child out of wedlock never need to get upset by what they hear in church. God forbid that the truth be spoken in a way that they can comprehend.

    Meanwhile, gossip, hatred, malice and slander continue to be practiced by the Saints who are offended if you speak the truth.

    I would suggest that Salamander direct his anger to Jesus. He's the one who said "You fool."
     
  20. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    They are weaker brothers, Paul, and we should if at all possible, help them not to find offense. Not editing a word or two may be BIG obstacles to some.
     
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