You just don't UNDERSTAND!

Think that the gist of the Book I sourced was that the author took "election" from Ephesians as meaning that God elected the "Plan" to redeem sinners through the cross, "elected" Christ as the mediator of that plan, so that Romans refers to the Plan of those who accept Jesus get predestined/glorified/etc, and that ALL happen after their make a "free will" decision to accept Jesus...

So he could say the "elect" was the Church of Christ, and election was what God already pedertined would happen to each one who chose to accept Christ...

Is that what you mean in point 2?

Also, have you ever heard the belief that in Cross of Christ, when God reconciled ALL back to himself, that Christ paid in full for all, so ALL manking was "conditionally elected" by God to have eternal life, but once they know their sinful condition and willfully reject it, lose their salvation than?

 

Iconoclast....

The problem that I am detecting with you is the same thing I have seen with other calvinists on here.

And that is that you are rejecting the scriptures as your truth standard, and replacing the scriptures with the doctrines of calvinism.

Its so apparent. Scriptures that are soo clear, incredibly clear, you simply can not comprehend them.

Its a very sad thing to see. I think you are decent guy and all, but you seem to be unable to understand Gods scriptural truth, because of your almost cult like allegience to Calvinism. Your not the only one, of course. Not by a long shot. Some other cavlinists on here have this same problem.

You need to take the blinders off, and let God start teaching you truth, rather than Calvin and his minions..

God..through the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit, is our teacher.

Not men. Not Calvin. Not the reformers

The Holy Spirit.

God bless you

 

So the Calvinist would say that God knows who are saved BECAUSE he is making it not only possible to save them, but will make sure they get saved, Election on on individual basis...

Arminian would say that God knows who are saved because He knows all things, and "sees" them believeing by free will upon Jesus, and see them as part of the elected Body of Christ?

So again the BIG difference is that both sides agrre pretty much from aspect of what saves, Cross, how to get saved, by faith in Christ, just differ IF someone "on their own" can decide to accept Jesus?

 

And because calvinist believe that way, is the main reason why tend to hold a limited atonement view of the Cross, as God was inthru Jesus JUST purchasing/redeeming back those He knew that would be elected, so NO need for unlimited atonement to even be offered?

 

Iconoclast...

Here is the scripture you are presenting...

Here is a more scripturally sound view of it than your calvinism offers...

http://evangelicalarminians.org/node/49

 

AIC
this does not even begin to address the verses,,,,
start in verse 37
37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

what does this teach? also I asked what you have read by that list of writers.

 

Well, I'll be darned.

I never knew arminianism had a little "catch phrase" like the calvinism does.


ARMINIANISM

Arminianism may be represented by the acronym FACTS:

Freed by Grace (to Believe)
Atonement for All
Conditional Election
Total Depravity
Security in Christ

:smilewinkgrin:

 

does this mean that you cannot respond scripturally?

 

Iconoclast...

Sure it does. And very well, I might add.

(your dancing again) :laugh:

what does this teach?

You know full well what arminianists teach, just like I know what calvinists teach. (your doing the soft shoe!)

Thats not the topic of this thread. (Fred Astair is applauding!)

I;ve read lots and lots by lots of writers, just like you. :wavey:


Congratulations! You posted a lots and lots while completly ignoring the material in question.

Tip toe, through the tulips....

--------------------------------------------

Here is the material you ignored while dancing....

Are you going to adress it, or keep dancing?

AiC

 

Lets work through Jn 6 :37 first,instead of hopping around like a JW

 

Iconoclast....

To this truth...

You responded....

And you say that because...



CALVIN SAYS SO! :laugh::tonofbricks:

Iconoclast, It is imperitive that we go to the scriptures, and the scriptures alone as our truth standard. It is folly to turn to the doctrines and writings of Calvin as the truth standard, rather then the scriptures. And the same goes for the non/cal believers as well.

You have made the teachings of Calvin the truth standard, rather then Gods word.

According to scripture, Jesus died for everyone

◦John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, 'Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!'"

◦John 3:16, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

◦John 4:42, "and they were saying to the woman, 'It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves and know that this One is indeed the Savior of the world.'"

◦1 Tim. 4:10, "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

◦1 John 2:2, "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

◦1 John 4:14, "And we have beheld and bear witness that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world."

And there are so many more.

 

okay....you offer a nice list of scripture....mostly dealing with the word world, or all men.

Now we want to understand all the verses plus others you ignore.

Do you believe ALL MEN will be saved?.....yes would be the heresy of universalism.....I have not seen a consistent universalist in some time!

No would be the correct response.....so we both limit the scope of the atonement

So what makes the difference here?

you say it is man.....who must do or add something all by himself...

I say it is God who has a covenant purpose to save the elect given to Jesus

Along with jn 6:37 here is another group of scriptures you cannot answer;

this verse uses the word world also...yet i did not see it on your list...aic

Why did the Father select or elect "these men" out of the world?

another verse that uses world...Jesus says He did not pray for the world, but for those given.....
When were they given aic? Why were they given aic?

looks like those given are in contrast to the world.....

If the world loves its own....why does the world hate them?

What does it mean they are not of the world?

Who made them different? God? or themselves? What does the passage teach?

They are not of the world, but being sent into the world.....interesting!

They are being sent out into the world, to gather those who believe...that would be the elect covenant children scattered througout the world.

24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world

Explain or understand verse 24....and you will come to truth..if not remain in your error.

I did not even see what Calvin thought or taught on these verses aic, imagine that.....although you keep pushing that dead end idea.

 

Iconoclast...

No no no. Thats not the issue.

The issue is do YOU have the ability to understand this truth.
I have no outside authority telling me what a passage of scripture means.
You cant say that. John Calvin is your authority...not the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

Well. Now you are adding slander to your already magnificent *dancing* qualities. I have never advocated for the heretical "universalism" idea...and yet...you just throw that in there for the heck of it. Nice going.

Error.

It is God who says man must add something.

And that something is Faith...in...Christ.God does not do that for us.

The choice is ours. If God did that for us, we would be robots. God does not concern Himself with, or create, automotron robots. He creates people with the ability to think, and make decisions.

And regarding eternal life. He gives us a choice to make.

Those are the ones who decide for Christ, rather than reject Him.

"Those whom thou hast given me" are those who have chosen to place their faith in Christ.

 

Completely avoiding the clear teaching and meaning of this text, which says nothing about man placing anything anywhere



Man is never said to be saved...because of faith,never....
He is saved, by or through faith......there is a world of difference here.
I notice that you insert this idea into verse 24....when it is not there at all...
but you must to maintain your false ideas..

Like I said you and those with your philosophy,cannot really come to truth on these verses.....scripture indicates there are some who have;

it is another of a different kind.....this might be what is here AIC....
I would like that to not be the case, but something is wrong with the picture my friend......sorry I cannot help you...I do not think you are following the thread too well.You are unable to come to grips with the scripture offered at this time....

Your over-reacting against Calvin, and calvinists are clouding your judgement....you cannot process these verses without mentioning these things....

 

Iconoclast...

I believe you have been completly indoctrinated into the theology of John Calvin. It seems to be very clear that you accept blindly John Calvin as your truth authority, rather then the scriptures and the teaching ministry of the Holy Spirit. Its almost like borderline brainwashing. Thats the only explanation I can think of for the *problems* inconsistantcies, and general >>weirdness<< in most of your posts

I'm not saying you are literally brainwashed, mind you. Not at all. But you are sort of in that "ball park" so to speak.

If I was in your spot, I would be thinking about maybe doing 2 things...

1) Spend more time in the scriptures alone, rather than calvinism material.
2) Engage in a scripture study on "humility"

God bless you

 

Iconoclast...

You said this to me...

And now you are questioning my sure and eternal salvation, because I do not accept calvinism.

That is disgracefull.

My brother, I say this in love. You do not have a problem with arrogance.

You have an extreme and possibly dangerous problem with super-arrogance

Please deal with these issues, Iconoclast. I have found that it is much better when we deal with our personal issues of this sort...rather than have GOD deal with those issues further down the road.

Please. Be wise.