"You will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes"

Wow, Robert we may not agree politically but I agree with you here. There is an agenda and I espeically like you last statement.

 

The scripture say they will return and offer sacrifices, that's good enough for me. I know this goes against your call in life: converting us all to preterist, but I will decline the offer.

BTW, I don't see how a sacrifice looking back would be any different than a sacrifice looking forward. But, I can see how it would bother you; it stops your preterism in it's tracks. Too bad!

 

Wow, last week I was called "accuser of the brethern," and now I've been called a "weed." I am so insulted. By the way, based on your response let's just say, "agenda exposed."

 

Back to the OP, if your conclusions are correct, then Jesus should have returned well before 70 A.D.. The scriptures show a great persecution under Saul (Paul) in which Christians were scattered "everywhere". In fact, some Christians had fled Israel altogether and sought refuge in other countries, this is why Saul went to Damascus, to arrest Christians who had fled there.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Notice it says believers were scattered abroad "throughout" the regions of Judaea and Samaria. If your interpretation of Matthew 10 is correct, then Jesus should have come at this time. Most scholars believe this persecution took place about one year after Jesus was crucified.

Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

Again, it shows believers were scattered "everywhere".

In Matthew 10 Jesus says Christians will be hated for "my name's sake". The Romans did not come against Israel in 70 A.D. because of Christianity whatsoever, they did not come against Israel because of Jesus's name, they came against the Jews because they revolted against the authority of Rome.

However, in Acts 8, these persons are being persected for Jesus's sake, matching what Jesus said in Matthew 10 perfectly.

Matt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

I have never heard this theory put forth, but I have wondered if Jesus appearing to Saul (Paul) was actually the fulfillment of this prophesy.

In my opinion, Acts 8-9 fits Jesus's prophesy in Matthew 10 much better than the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. in every way. And it is documented in scripture, not conjecture.

 

I notice none of you Preterists have responded to my last post.

Does Acts 8-9 fulfill Jesus's prophesy in Matthew 10?

If not, why not?

 

I don't have to assume it, the scriptures say it.

Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.

Acts 8:3 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

The scriptures say believers were scattered "throughout" the regions of Judaea and Samaria and went "everywhere" preaching the word.

The Romans didn't attack Jerusalem because of Christians in 70 A.D., but the great persecution in Acts 8 was specifically a persecution against Christians and for Jesus's name sake.

The point is, Jesus was not speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem in Matthew 10, he was speaking of believers being persecuted for his name's sake as happened in Acts chapter 8.

In Matthew 10 Jesus did not mention coming in the clouds with his angels, he did not say every eye would see him, he said that before they went through all the cities of Israel he would come. He was speaking to believers who he said would be persecuted and were in Acts 8.

Matt 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Do you see any mention of coming in the clouds with his angels in Matt 10:23? No. He simply said he would come. And he did come when he met Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus. This ended Paul's persecution of Christians and no doubt saved many. He did not arrest those in Damascus as he had intended. He did not arrest any more Christians after this. Others may have, we have no record of that. Acts 8:3 says it was Saul who made havoc of the church, so obviously he was the leader of this great persecution against Christians. So when the Lord came and appeared to Saul (Paul) it effectively ended this persecution and saved the Christians. And though other Christians did not see this appearance, Jesus never said every eye would see him in Matthew 10, he just said he would come. And it wasn't long before all the Christians heard of this coming from Paul himself and it was made known to them.

I am not saying Jesus appearing to Saul was a fulfillment of Matt 10:23, but I am saying it could be. It certainly fits the prophesy Jesus gave of Christians being persecuted for his name's sake. And Acts 8 tells us of Christians fleeing throughout Judaea and Samaria, going everywhere. Acts 8-9 fits this prophesy far better than the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. in my opinion.

If a specific time is given, like the six days in creation, I take that literally. But statements like "soon" or "times" or "seasons" or "quickly" cannot be determined.

And this was what Peter said of scoffers who asked where the coming of Jesus is. Peter showed that what is a short time in God's view may seem like a long period to man.

2 Pet 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Peter answered this by showing that a thousand years in man's view can be but one day in God's view. So when God says soon, it may not seem immediate to man.

2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

You have to understand verse 8 in context. Peter has just described men who are impatient and have become scoffers. They have waited and waited and now doubt that Jesus would come. But Paul explains what may seem a long time to them may be but a moment in God's eyes.

And this is what you fail to understand when you read verses where it is said the Lord is coming soon. He is coming soon, but it may seem like a long time to us.

 

Mel Miller

As a returning member, I wish to second Winman's observation about the use
of "mello" for what is "about to occur" because it anticipates the passing of a
thousand years in God's sight as being no more that a single day in our sight.

This word for "about" to occur refers in Matt.16:27 at Christ's second coming.
But I believe the next verse puts the "death of some of those (not some of 'you') standing here (meaning standing 'there' when He is about to appear with the angels to reward every believer)...'they' will not taste death until they see Him having come (perfect participle) in His kingdom", i.e., "in His kingdom POWER" according to Mark 9:1 and Rev.12:10.

Why did Robert Stephanus (in 1550) separate Mark 9:1 from what occurred a week earlier when Jesus actually made the prophecy of His coming in Kingdom POWER? Was it because he thought the experience on the Mt. of Transfiguration fulfilled His coming in POWER? Or was it because, even today, we fail to see that Jesus had in mind His coming in "Kingdom Power" during the 1260 Endtime days of Rev.12:10-14? Note especially Rev.12:10. Mel

 

Well, the apostle John did see this and wrote Revelations. It was a vision of the future to John, yet he saw it. And John was one of the disciples standing by when Jesus spoke Mark 9:1.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Jesus did not say they would be alive when he comes in his power, he said they would not die until they "see" it. That is a HUGE difference in meaning.

This might have been Jesus telling us ahead of time of "The Revelation" to be revealed to John.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

 

Lastday

Winman,

Thank you for responding; but I am wondering if you see Mark 9:1 having been fulfilled through the predictions of Rev.12:10-14 that have NOT yet
occurred relative to the coming of "God's Kingdom Power and Christ's own
Authority" which the chiasm of Rev.12:10-14 places during a "kairos" (appointed) Endtime period of 3.5 years or 42 months or 1260 days.

Your quote seems to point to a first century fulfillment:

The Book of Revelation contains the prophecy of "those who will love NOT
their life unto death" to the very End of Chronos-Time! Indeed, some will
still taste death until the last one "who must be killed has been killed AFTER" they see the Two Prophets finish demonstrating God's Kingdom Power for 1260 days!! Only at the deaths of these two, and with just 3 days remaining until the 7th Trumpet sounds that "chronos-time of 1260 days has been completed" (Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7)...only then will the "kairos-time to judge and reward the Prophets and Saints have come"!!! Rev.11:18.

I do not see how the Preterist advocates of prophecy can support their position by using Mark 9:1 as a part of an "inverse parallelism" to an alleged terminal point in AD 70 when Rev.12:10 clearly puts what is "about to occur" as of Matt.16:27-28 with the terminal point of the Chiasmus still to occur at the future S. C. of Christ to "reward all the Saints at the 7th Trumpet".
Mel Miller

 

I am not quite sure I follow what you are saying here. What I am saying is that people read more into Mark 9:1 than it actually says.

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Jesus did not say these persons would be alive when he comes in power, he said they would not die till they have "seen" the kingdom of God come with power.

And John did not die until he had seen this. He saw the kingdom of God come with power when God revealed it to him on Patmos.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Here in Rev 1:1,2 John confirms that he "saw" all of the events he was about to shew us in this book.

These events did not take place in John's lifetime, but he saw them nevertheless just as Jesus foretold.

 

Lastday

Winman,

We need to determine whom Jesus had in mind when He identified "some"
who will taste death AFTER they see Him having come in kingdom power.
Do "these persons" in your quote below refer to those living during the
first century OR do they refer to those who "overcome (survive) to the
End of the Age...to the End of Time...to the 3 Days Christ is ABOUT (mello)
to appear with the holy angels "to reward every believer"? Matt.16:27.
You wrote:

The key verse in determining the identity of "these persons" is Mark 9:1
because it alone (of Synoptic Gospels) uses a perfect active participle
for "some who will taste death after seeing the kingdom of God having
come (pft part) with power"!

Matthew's account places the timing of the Son of Man coming (present
participle) at the SAME time He appears "with the angels to reward every
believer". Mark does not use the present tense (as does Matthew) because, according to Mark 9:1 and Rev.12:10, "God's Kingdom Power occurs during the 3.5 kairos times or 1260 days" that precede Christ's appearance to reward all believers!

The 7th Trumpet is the "kairos time to reward the prophets and saints".
That means "some will taste death" after the Kingdom of God comes in
Power (after the "Kairos NOW time" of Rev.12:10-14 fulfills the perfect
participle in Mark 9:1 AND requires some to taste death AFTER they see
God's Kingdom coming in Power for 1260 days, 3.5 times, 42 months!!

I take from the Chiasm of this Inverse Parallelism that Mark points to
the 1260-day Endtime as the period OF POWER AFTER which "some
of these persons" must taste death before God "avenges the blood
of the Martyrs who must remain under the Altar until the last one who
"must be killed has been killed"!!! Rev.6:11.

My conclusion, on the one hand, is that Matt.16:27-28 points forward to
the very PRESENCE (parousia) of Christ to reward every believer; but that "some standing (t)here" will taste death before they are "gathered above
at His COMING (erchomai) to meet Him in the air".

On the other hand, "these persons will see God's Kingdom POWER
(but not His Presence during the NOW-Time of 1260 days) which must
occur before they taste death and before Christ comes in PERSON.
Mel Miller

 

Wow, you sure make it complicated. This statement is also shown in Matthew, and it is shown that Jesus was speaking to his disciples.

Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

So, we see in Matthew 16 that Jesus was speaking to his disciples when he said there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they "see" the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

It is really not that complicated, John saw Jesus coming in his kingdom when Jesus revealed this to him on the isle of Patmos. This was probably around 90-96 A.D. when John was very old, but quite alive.

You do not seem to grasp what I am saying. Jesus did not say that some of the disciples would still be living when he came in his kingdom, he said they would not die until they SEE it.

John saw it. It was a vision, it was a revelation of the future, but he saw it. And that is what he says in Rev 1:1-2

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

I am repeating myself, but only because you do not seem to grasp what I am saying. In Revelations 1 John tells of The Revelation of Jesus Christ which was delivered to him by an angel.

And in verse 2 John says he is bearing record "of all the things that he saw". These are very future events, but Jesus showed John these events in advance and now John is telling us what he saw.

Thus, Matt 16:28 is fulfilled, John remained alive until Jesus gave him this vision of the future on the isle of Patmos and he saw the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

I don't know how to make it more plain than that.

 

Last days not the end of time

When the apostles use phrases like the "last days" they are writing in terms of the last days of the Old Covenant. They never say it is the end of time.

In Romans 13: 12 - 13 when paul says

12 The night is far gone; the day is at hand. So then let us cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly as in the daytime, ...

the "let us walk properly as in the day time" is a reference to the period of time after Christ's return. He is telling them the moment of Christ's return is near and to go ahead and start behaving like he has already returned. To live now like they will after the end of the Old Covenant and the full implementation of the New Covenant.

 

Lastday

Winman

Thanks for your patience; but your response seems to make "these persons"
refer to the Disciples rather than to those who will see "all these things that
happens" on the Day of Christ's Presence (parousia) AS WELL AS the Day He
comes (erchomai) to destroy all those who are gathered to Armageddon.
You Wrote:

The word "mello" in Matt.16:27 puts "those who see Christ's presence with
the angels to reward every believer" AFTER they have seen Him coming in
Kingdom Power through Elijah and the Apostle John who will be among the
"SOME who do not taste death until they demonstrate God's Kingdom Power
for 1260 days". You have not yet realized that John may be ONE of the Two Witnesses in order to fulfill the promise of the Mighty angel and the Voice from heaven, speaking and swearing in the name of the Creator, that "John must prophesy again before many kings and peoples and nations and language groups"! Rev.10:6-11.

Jesus predicts that "some will not die until after they see the 'NOW of God's
Kingdom and His own Authority coming in Power for 1260 days' before He appears in Person". Rev.12:10-14. I question the assumption that Jesus was predicting the Disciples were "those who lived as long as John" in order for them TOGETHER to see God's Kingdom Power. You are limiting the "some" to the Disciples by association with John's vision...not with its fulfillment when "chronos-time no longer" remains subject to fulfillment!! Rev.10:6-7; 11:6-7.

The "kairos-NOW-time" of Rev.12:10-11 cannot be fulfilled until the Two Prophets come from heaven IN THE SIGHT OF ALL MEN. They come prior to the Day of the Lord to "demonstrate God's Kingdom Power" during the Endtime of 1260 days. This event is no longer future to this generation since the recent increase of knowledge regarding the likely year of Christ's S.C.!!!
Mel Miller

 

Hi LogosI
I see that you are a fellow-Virginian...a great state for me since I was 40 in 1960!
You write shortly of two things, i.e., the "last days" and the "full augmentation of
the New Covenant".

I am particularly interested in the "last day" as used by Jesus in John 6:38-40,44,54.
To me the "last days" began in the first century and are still in process of fulfillment.
Please tell me what you mean as to the nature and timing of the "full augmentation"
of the New Covenant. Is there a future "new aspect" of the Old Covenant yet to be
realized during the Millennial Reign of Christ thru Israel at the head of the nations?

 

I have to go to work, so I can't really answer you now.

I know Jesus was speaking to his disciples, that is what the passage directly says. People of the future weren't standing there with him were they?

Matt 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

I know Jesus was speaking to his disciples, the scriptures say so.