"You will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes"

Lastday

Winman,

Jesus had only the Disciples in the background of His mind for the revelation of His coming in Endtime Kingdom Power...PRIOR to the revelation of His very Presence!
This Presence is a NOUN; not a VERB as in His MAIN concern that He is Coming in Power (an action) before He appears!!
He did not primarily mean "YOU Disciples will see” My PRESENCE, but "THOSE
standing when I come in POWER" for 1260 days prior to My PRESENCE on the Last Day.

Jesus used two PERFECT participles in Mark 9:1 to show He not only had John in mind for recording the future ACTION of His coming with the Saints. Rev.1:7.
Jesus had a more important ACTION in mind that He much later revealed to John about coming in Power before “the final martyrs” are killed. Rev.12:10. By using two PERFECT participles, He emphasized that Endtime martyrs (including John) would both have SEEN and PARTICIPATED in His coming in Kingdom Power prior to His appearance in Person.

For corroboration I quote Dr. Steve Runge of Logos Bible Software who affirms, in this text, that “Jesus uses participles before the main action (of Endtime Martyrs) in order to push the less important action (of what John saw and revealed about knowing what to expect)...putting it into the background”. The MAIN action is not “you will see me coming before you
die; but they will have already seen My Power prior to seeing My Presence.

That means the more important matter being revealed to John concerned
the Endtime reference to “those” who see His Power when He is “about to come” in Glory. That too is why Jesus said, after the Baptist was killed, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things" in preparation for Christ's coming
in Glory (Verbal action). The more important Endtime suffering was not to be recorded by John himself until decades after revealing the lesser important matter that “John might not taste death" until Jesus comes in Power.

Jesus arguably prepared John for his future role as one of those Two who will demonstrate the "NOW of God's Kingdom Power and Christ's Authority" during
the “appointed Endtime period” of 3.5 years; 42 months; until 3 days before the End! Rev.12:10-11. There will be no giving or receiving of rewards until the last martyr has been killed and there will be no "appointed kairos time" for them to be judged or their blood avenged until the Temple in heaven opens for the 7th Trumpet to proclaim: "God's wrath has come and the exact time to
destroy the destroyers of earth...for the Temple was open"!! Rev.11:18-19. "No one will enter therein until the martyrs sing the song of Moses...after the Last Plague Empties"!!! Rev.15:1-8.
Mel Miller

 

Hello Lastday,
Yes Virginia is indeed a good place.
I think the terms last days is often misunderstood. It doesn’t refer to the end of time or Christian Age. The bible never says that time is coming to an end. It should be interpreted from a Jewish perspective. It is the last days of the Old Covenant.
There is no future aspect to the Old Covenant. The bible makes no provision to going back to it once it ended. It ended in 70 AD with the destruction of the temple. The New Covenant came into its full implementation at that time. The full implementation of the New Covenant means that when we die that we go immediately to heaven instead of Sheol as mentioned by the OT writers upon death.
When you use the term Millennial Reign you must be referring to an element of the dispensational premillennial model. Since I’m a full preterist I don’t believe there will be a millennial reign of Christ on earth. And, of course don’t see any role for covenant Israel in the future. The modern state of Israel is not in a covenant relationship with God. Israel’s role came to an end with the end of the Old Covenant. All people now stand equal before God.

Regards,

Logos1

 

Logos1:
I read you so far, but
You claim the "Bible never says that time is coming to an end". What "time" are you
talking about? What did Jesus mean when He said the "End will be known as Near"?
How does the "End" differ from that of not knowing the "day or hour"? Matt.24:33,36.

I need some more clarification. What about the end of "chronos-time"? Rev.10:6-7.
When does "kairos-time" kick in relative to the 7th and last Trumpet of Revelation?

What is the difference between the "last day" of John 6:38-40 and "last days"?

What happens to those who are rescued, "escape" the wrath of the Day of Wrath and,
according to Jesus, will be "kept alive" if they "beg to escape and be able to stand before Him"?

Is the New New Covenant totally unrelated to Jews who beg for mercy when they
"see HIm coming in power and glory" at the end of this Age? What happens at the End of this Age?
Thank you.
Mel Miller

 

You know, when folks have to write a novel to explain a verse using all sorts of terms not shown in the scriptures, I immediately become suspicious of their interpretation.

To me it is simple and straightforward. Jesus told his disciples that there were some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his power.

And John saw that when an angel of God revealed it to him on Patmos. It was a vision of events to take place in the future. John died long ago and those events have yet to take place, but John saw everything that is to take place in advance nevertheless. This is what God's prophets did, tell the future in advance.

So, this prophesy was fulfilled when John saw these future events on Patmos.

 

Lastday

Winman,

You dismiss my response too easily for me to appreciate or understand your concern for the truth!
I will just once more give you the scriptural basis for the Endtime fulfillment of Mark 9:1; Rev.12:10!!
Your argument claims the 2nd Personal pronoun “YOU “ (John), who alone fulfilled the predicted vision years later by writing Revelation, automatically excludes Believers who live at the End of the Age!!!

“Some of those (3rd person plural)...rather than “some of you (2nd person plural) who experience God's Kingdom POWER” for 1260 successive days until they “taste death”...are NOT the “SAME” persons who “mourn” at His PRESENCE on the Lastday. Those who see Him coming in PERSON on the Lastday must include the Jews who have suffered “days of vengeance” for 2000 years from AD 33 to the End of Gentile Times in 2033. Luke 21:22-24.

Both Jesus and John predicted that the the Tribes of earth who DO NOT taste death while He comes in Kingdom POWER will also see Him coming and also “mourn and beg to escape all these things and to stand before the Son of Man”! While the “hearts of many fail from fear”, only a FEW (some) must still die before the survivors “mourn and beg to escape”!! Luke 21:34-36. The Preterist's view of Christ's SC ignores that MANY who continue to suffer the days of vengeance” since AD 33 (for having pierced Him) will suddenly acknowledge Yeshua is their Messiah, 2000 years later, be “kept alive and rescued” on the Day of Wrath...either Tishri 15, a Saturday, or Tishri 16, a Sunday!!! Joel 2:32; Luke 17:30-33.

Your sole, unsubstantiated reason for limiting those who suffer for Christ to “YOU” Believers of the first century is based on the argument that THEY are NOT Endtime Believers who die for Christ after seeing “God's Kingdom Power and Christ's Authority” (Rev.12:10-14 for just 1260 days)! The most vital experience for those who see Him coming in Power and Glory...both those who Believe and Unbelievers who “mourn” on the Lastday...is proven by a double perfect participle and its application to 3rd person subjects who suffer death for 2000 years after AD 33 and already 1940 years since AD 70.

I have no interest in dialogue with one who refuses to consider the merits of the opposing viewpoint.
Mel Miller

 

Whoa! Slow down there pardner! lastday, you are being much too quick to jump to a gun/conclusion as you have here. First of all, Winman is answering/dialoguing with you rather congenially - you have no qualm with him there. This is a debate forum - you are being debated - and again, I emphasize, rather congenially.

Second, Winman has almost 3,000 posts here, you ten. Chill out, relax, you are being heard and read, both by him, and others. No need to question someone's "concern for the truth." Many here will disagree with you - I certainly do. This does not equate to someone not considering what you say. We just happen to think that thru our much study (like unto yours?) - you are flat out wrong.

Continue to debate - or not - your call. Relax, and remember what they say:

"When you have 1 finger pointing at someone else - there are 3 more pointing back at you."

Oh, and BTW, welcome to Baptist Board!

 

Lastday

Eagle,
You misjudge my remark about NOT understanding Winman's concern for
the truth.
You write:

I understand his interpretation that Jesus had John in mind as fulfilling the
prediction that "some would not taste death". But he refuses to discuss
the interpretation given by John himself in Rev.12:10-14 that places its
fulfillment during the 1260 days prior to Christ's future physical return in
glory.

Instead...he criticized me for writing a "novel using all sorts of terms not
found in scripture"! That kind of indictment, IMO, shows a "lack of concern for the truth that John revealed as still being FUTURE to the time he wrote the Book of Revelation"!! Rather than responding to this truth of what is
still future to Endtime Martyrs, he has refused to deal with Rev.12:10!!!

Winman has accused Grasshopper of not responding to his questions...#29.
Winman has refused to respond to John's interpretation of Mark 9:1 and so
has failed to disclose the truth as John explained it in Rev.12:10-14.
Winman keeps repeating his pet response:

This is a direct contradiction of what Jesus said! He said "some of those
standing here...when He is about to come in GLORY WILL NOT TASTE DEATH" while they see His Endtime Kingdom POWER for 3.5 times, 42 months, 1260 days!! Then, with the end of chronos-time having come, "SOME (a few) will still taste death" for just 3 days that are left until the End of the Age...until the the 7th Trumpet sounds that the "Three R's have come: Resurrection, Rewards for Believers and Retribution" to those who are "destroying the earth"!!! Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7; Rev.11:18.

Eagle, you judge without due respect for all the facts! Case in Point: You apologized for accusing Asterisktom (#17) for writing about his deceptive remarks...about what you admitted "smacks of deception"!! Here you judge me because I object to Winman's accusation that I am writing without use of the "terms of Scripture"!!!

As far as Winman having written 3000 posts in just one year, I point out that, as a member in 2006, the archives show I was well respected by others such as Ed Sutton and Ed Edwards! I suggest that you seek to display a more respectful attitude and not this one-sided, unfair condemnation of one who seeks to present Scriptural truth!! In the light of what Jesus actually revealed to John much later regarding Endtime Martyrs, "A few must still taste death" for three final days before all men "see Christ coming both in POWER AND PERSONAL GLORY"!!!
Mel Miller

 

lastday

First of all, I can barely understand your posts.

What specifically is shown in Rev 12:10-14 that shows Jesus's prophecy in Mark 9:1 is happening here? I have read these verses and do not see one thing pointing to Mark 9:1.

Let's start there.

 

The chronos time that is running out is the time until Christ returns--the clock moving towards that event as the last days were counted down--as in 70 AD--not the end of human history. Of course you would refer to the actual coming of Christ an event or kairos--Christ's fullness of time. The time when all things were fulfilled.

 

You've got me mixed up with someone else, I am not a Preterist whatsoever.

 

Lastday

Winman,

I wonder why you repeat your stated "inability to understand my posts".
It's clear to me you failed to consider the questions in my opening post.
You write:

In my opening post, July 24, #31, I attempted to get your response to questions in which you finally show some interest:
I wrote:

You assume Jesus is talking ONLY about what is happening "HERE" (AD 30)!
In my opening post above, I first referenced Matt.16:27. Jesus states He
is "about to come (mello; erchomai) in GLORY" at which time every eye will "see Him". Rev.1:7. But in verse 28 He is talking only about His coming in POWER...for 1260 days prior to His PAROUSIA when He appears in PERSON.
THIS IS THE INTERPRETATION IN REV.12:10-14 GIVEN TO JOHN OF FINAL ENDTIME EVENTS...INCLUDING THE DEATHS OF TWO ENDTIME PROPHETS.

Later, Jesus uses the verb erchomai of His COMING AFTER "they see Him having appeared like lightning". Matt.24:27,30. They see Him in PERSON
(parousia) having appeared in GLORY immediately before they "see the Son of Man gathering His elect from earth while the angels gather them from
all extremities of the sky". You must compare Mark 13:27 with Matt.24:31 in order to realize His very PRESENCE precedes the Resurrection of the Saints and the necessity that every Martyr has been killed BEFORE He appears.

You fail to see this sequence because the double perfect participle in Mark
9:1 requires SOME of THOSE who have seen Him coming in POWER for 1260 days will still taste death before His appearance in PERSON! Only Mark says
THESE FEW having seen (first PP) God's Kingdom POWER having already come (2nd PP) will do so before they taste death!! Robert Stephanus in
1550 disassociated Mark 9:1 from Mark 8:38. He placed this truth with what occurred a week later on the Mt. because he failed to consider Rev.12:10!!!

The "mighty voice from heaven declares "God's Kingdom POWER and Christ's Authority has NOW come" when there is still 3.5 times, 42 months or 1260 days UNTIL the Two Witnesses will be killed! Then, in the final 3 days, "SOME will still taste death"!! Rev.11:7-11. I submit that the final Revelation (of the
Father, through the Son, to John) extends the time for "overcoming even unto death" until exactly 2000 years since Christ died...AD 33 to AD 2033!!!
Mel Miller

 

OK, are you speaking of the rapture here when you speak of Jesus coming in his power? And then 1260 days later he appears in person and steps on the mount of Olives? If so, we are in agreement.

If I understand you, this is John seeing Jesus coming in his kingdom. I agree that is what John is seeing in Revelations 12.

I can't say why Robert Stephanus believes this, I am not even aware of who he is. But I know that many people believe Mark 9:1 is speaking of the transfiguration of Jesus that occured a few days later. And this may be the correct interpretation.

But some do not accept this explanation, as the disciples did not actually see Jesus in his kingdom on the mount of transfiguration.

All I am saying is that Jesus might simply have been foretelling of the revelation to be given to John on the isle of Patmos later in his life. Jesus did not say to his disciples standing there that they would be alive when he comes in his kingdom, he says that some of them would not die until they see it. That is a very big difference.

And John did see Jesus coming in his kingdom in Revelations 12 before he died on the isle of Patmos.

You have heard of Occam's Razor, that the simplest explanation should always be accepted over a complicated one. Well, I feel my explanation is very simple and straightforward and should be considered.

My explanation does not require conjecture. Jesus said some standing here would not die until they see Jesus come in his kingdom, and we know John saw this on Patmos. Simple.

 

LOL! lastday, that was a hilarious post! As far as you having gotten respect "before" under some other (now defunct?) screen name, I have no knowledge or reference point on that, from which to judge.

Under this current incarnation, however, lastday, it appears to me that you have come in with both six-guns blazin', and a taking names attitude. Not much room for true respectful discourse with that attitude on your part.

As for me, if you have already shown evidence where I apologized for something - even if it was not a correlation to the present circumstance - then I guess my attitude for demonstrating humility and recognizing error is already settled, isn't it? We're still waiting to see on yours...

Then, you "suggest" that I take a more respectful attitude? HILARIOUS! You are a piece of work! HILARIOUS!

 

I too, like the simple explanation first, and it usually is best. Well, stated Winman. I have not given enough overall thought to this - with all the possible permutations - but I like what you say.

I personally feel, this is one of those passages that does not offer enough evidence for me to necessarily take a definitive position on it - so I haven't. Nor, do I feel the need to.

 

I am sorry for this lastday, but this is what I often say after reading your posts - and must again say here:

HUH???

Just a suggestion, you might try just making 1 or 2 points - with good scriptural support and explanation at a time. Then maybe a true dialogue can take place.

So far, I think this is right, you have tied Mark 9:1 with Rev. 12:10, and, I think, Matt. 16:27,28? Yet you have shown no rigor or 'in the bible' evidence as to why any should agree with you. Either in context, or out, you must still show 'how' or 'why' you have come to your conclusions. So far, you have merely said they are the same.

You are also jumping all around other places, leaving my head spinning trying to keep up. I don't see any of it. It may be because I am not as sharp as you. OK, so maybe give me a break, and explain it so that even I can understand it?

BTW, I think this is why Winman also often says, HUH???

 

Lastday

Winman,

Please do not think I place the rapture at Christ's coming in Kingdom Power.
He demonstrates His Kingdom POWER for 1260 days through the 2 Prophets
before He comes in PERSON to "gather the elect from earth and sends the
angels to gather them out of the sky at His PRESENCE in Glory and Power"!

Your alleged "simple" explanation of affirming that Jesus came in Kingdom Power in a vision to John on Patmos fails to apply to more than John himself.
Others beside John ("a few") must taste death after they experience 1260 days of God's Kingdom Power having been manifested by the Two Prophets.

Your explanation does not apply to "God's Kingdom and Christ's Authority coming in Power" while John still lived since the "few" who must die will be killed
after Christ comes in POWER; but before He comes in GLORY. Those "few who taste death after they see Him coming in Kingdom Power" must apply
to some who survive the 1260 days of Kingdom Power; but are killed at
the finish of 1260 days...but within the 3 days until Christ comes in both POWER and GLORY. Chronos-Time ends on day #1260; but the "kairos-time"
for 3 R's (Resurrection, Rewards, Retribution) occurs at the 7th Trumpet!!
You Write:

The revelation to John that "some would die after they see God's Kingdom Power having come" is a revelation of what did not occur while John was on
Patmos. Revelation by itself is not the same as its fulfillment. Its fulfillment requires a future activity for 1260 days when "chronos-time terminates in
the days when the 7th Trumpet is about to sound". Rev.10:6-7. John was told that he "must prophesy again before many kings, peoples, nations
and language groups". That future revelation was NOT given by him on the Isle of Patmos. There is no proof that John died; but the belief is still being
held among the Orthodox Christians that John went to heaven and will return as one of the 2 Prophets!!!
You write:

My explanation is not so simple but it does not require the conjecture that
Christ has already come in Kingdom Power for 1260 days! Jesus allowed the "rumor that John might not die until He comes" (in my view) to
demonstrate God's Kingdom Power for 1260 days with "some of those standing here (meaning "there")!! For after those days is when He is
"about to come with the angels in Glory to reward every believer" and those "few will not die until after they see (the 1260-day manifestation of)
God's Kingdom Power and Christ's Authority"!!!
Mel Miller

 

Well, we know John saw Jesus come in his power and kingdom in Revelations because it is recorded for us. That is not to say others did not also have revelations, Peter for example speaks quite a bit of events that will take place at the end.

2 Pet 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

We know that end time events were revealed to Peter as well. Whether he saw this in a vision or not we cannot say.

No, now you are reading into Mark 9:1 what Jesus did not say. He did not say they would be alive when he comes in power and his kingdom, he said they shall not taste death until they see it. And John did see this before he died while on the isle of Patmos, and perhaps Peter did as well.

This is a very unorthodox view I have never seen before. I believe the prophesy of John prophesying before many peoples, nations, tongues, and kings was fulfilled when he recorded everything he saw on Patmos in the book of Revelations which has been revealed to the entire world since that time.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

As I've said several times now, Jesus said some of the disciples standing there would not die until they see Jesus come in power and his kingdom, and in Revelations 1:2 John confirms this very prophesy.

I think it a bit of stretch to say that John is still alive, it certainly cannot be shown from scripture. Lots of folks believe Jesus said John would not die until he comes again, but that is not what Jesus said, and the scriptures make that clear.

John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

In verse 22 Jesus said to Peter concerning John, "If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."

And verse 23 shows that a false rumor started from this misunderstanding of what Jesus actually said. The second half of the verse is very clear to say that is not what Jesus said. He did not say John would remain alive until he comes.

It is amazing that this false rumor still persists today, I have seen several here say Jesus said John would be alive when he comes, but Jesus did not say John would be alive when he comes, and the strong implication of this verse is that he would not be.

 

Lastday

Winman,

You wrote:

You cannot prove the "rumor" was FALSE that would allow John to remain alive until Jesus comes (in Kingdom Power for 1260 days). If it were a "FALSE" rumor, then you are saying Jesus knowingly promoted the spread of FALSE rumors. In His final Revelation to John, both the Mighty Angel and voice from Heaven predicted that John would "prophesy again before many kings and nations and peoples and tongues".

Instead of being a false rumor, the Angel swore that "time would end" in the days when John actually fulfilled what He SAW. As one of 2 Prophets, this verified to John that he was yet to reveal the messages of the "seven thunders" and so fulfill the rumor as well as revealing the sealed messages of the 7 thunders. He was told to "seal" these messages until the End of Time when the 7th Angel is "about to sound that God's wrath has come and that the promised rewards to every believer must be fulfilled". Rev.10 and Rev.11.

JOHN AND PETER DID NOT EXPERIENCE JESUS COMING IN GLORY AND POWER...THEY SAW IN ADVANCE WHAT EVERY BELIEVER WILL EXPERIENCE WHEN HE FINALLY APPEARS IN GLORY.

Your view has Peter suffering martyrdom "AFTER Christ came in glory and
power to reward every believer"! That's so disappointing and contradictory to
those who will "know the End is near"!! But first the 2 Prophets must display His power for 1260 days and only a "few" more taste death!!! Matt.16:27-28.

Your view fails to explain why He would allow "some to be killed for their faith after He comes to reward every believer"...and why our Holy God deliberately fostered the spreading of "false rumors"! Your view confuses the prediction WITH the future fulfillment of Prophecy!! The vision of what is yet to occur after 2000 years (but is "about to occur" in what is like 2 days in God's view) should dismantle the FALSE and heretical view that Jesus was otherwise "mistaken" !!!
Mel Miller

 

Jesus didn't promote this false rumor, brethren did. The scriptures tell us that. And the scriptures clearly tell us that Jesus did not say John would be alive when he came.

John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

Jesus didn't spread this rumor, the brethren did. And once again, the scriptures clearly show that Jesus did not say John would remain alive until he comes, and the strong implication is that he would not.

I am not twisting anything here, it is plain as day if you read these scriptures.

 

Lastday

Winman:

You are right on the button that Jesus did not "spread the rumor that John
might live until Jesus comes" AND also that "Jesus did not say John would
remain alive until He comes"!

It is the interpretation of what Jesus said that "twists the truth" and makes
Jesus out to be a deceiver if He knew how long John would live OR else was
"mistaken" about the time for His coming in Kingdom POWER as well as in GLORY...with both stages of His future Coming in POWER (erchomai) and His actual Presence in PERSON (Parousia) clearly settled in His mind!!

Show me one scholar (it doesn't take a scholar; but only a student) who has taught Jesus was not "mistaken" about the timing of His coming...for He was not even "mistaken" about not knowing the exact Last DAY and the final HOUR of Trial when He was on earth. Show me one scholar who realizes that Jesus would not and could not intentionally deceive the Apostles. You and I are mere students and only one of us believes Jesus desired the rumor to occur because it must be the truth!!!

But the Father has revealed the Day and Hour of Christ's return and even
revealed that exactly 1260 days will follow (NOT PRECEDE) Christ's coming
in Power and Glory (both erchomai and Parousia; coming and Presence)!

You must allow that, since Jesus never quelled the rumor; but even confirmed Daniel that He will be crowned as King and come with the Saints
at the END OF TIME WHEN CHRONOS-TIME OF 1260 DAYS HAS TERMINATED (Dan.12; Rev.10:6-7) AFTER "God's Kingdom has come in Kingdom Power and a FEW will still taste death for 3 days" while Christ will appear within 4 days.

Jesus knows these truths and revealed them to John so that, while he too knew Christ will appear within 4 days after the Two Prophets are killed, only a "few" must still die during the final 3 or 4 days which will be on a week-end.

Your presentation does not support the fact that Christ, even in His manhood, now knows all things! The Father has revealed them to Him and so your problem is failing to explain why Jesus was neither "mistaken" in Himself nor "deceptive" to John!! He has always known He will come on a Saturday or Sunday of the 8-Day Jubilee Feast of Tabernacles after 2000 years of His return to heaven to fulfill Lev.23:34-39 and Hos.5:14 to 6:2!!! Mel Miller