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Featured Your opponent plays dumb.

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by 37818, Dec 4, 2022.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You got me there :p

    Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding.
     
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  2. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Or, it is the fact - that some will not accept the interpretation of another persons doctrine.
    Bottom line on some things - we simply have to agree to disagree.
     
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  3. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    For Example:
    Is feet washing the third ordinance?

    check this out?
     
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  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    I agree the atonement makes salvation available for all but only those that trust in the risen Son will be saved. You do have a way with words :)
     
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  5. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    So...limited...
     
  6. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    There is no passage in the Bible that clearly states any Calvinistic doctrine. The only passage that seems to support one of the doctrines is in Romans 9, and can be understood differently upon closer, sounder examination.

    I know this thread was started by a non-Calvinist; but I am writing of the arguments of those who frequently are our opponents, that is, Calvininists.
     
    #26 Guido, Dec 6, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2022
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  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Guido, I know you didn't intend to make me laugh with your post here, but you did. You made a universal statement that declares all Reformed theology to be extra-biblical without any scripture as it's basis for knowing God.
    Here's the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith. Read it and see if your universal statement is correct.
     
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    ". . . To what purpose serves the general ransom, but only to assert that Almighty God would have the precious blood of his dear Son poured out for innumerable souls whom he will not have to share in any drop thereof, and so, in respect of them, to be spilt in vain, or else to be shed for them only that they might be the deeper damned? . . ." John Owen, To The Reader, Death of Death in the Death of Christ.

    The Death of Death in the Death of Christ - Wikipedia
     
  9. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    An excellent quote, showing the futility of General Redemption (Unlimited Atonement). Thank you John Owen.
     
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  10. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Intriguing. That sounds suspiciously counter to Calvinist arguments that God is not at fault for the fate of the non-elect he created predestined to be eternally damned.
     
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  11. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    I just visited that link and read "Of Divine Providence"

    You cannot explain to me how it is righteous of God to select people for the express purpose of damning their souls, when he could have saved them.

    Also, no scripture was provided in that chapter.
     
    #31 Guido, Dec 6, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2022
  12. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    Sorry. I didn't see the references to scripture. I'll read the passages later, though I doubt they support the doctrines stated.
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    God answers your complaint.
    *Psalm 53:2-3*
    God looks down from heaven on the children of man to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all fallen away; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.

    Guido, no one should ever be saved since we are all corrupt. If you want fairness, then you want all to go to hell. This would include any who would beg God to save them by their own willpower. A fair God would say..."No, you are corrupt and not holy. You shall die in your corruption." Guido, do you really want God to be fair?

    There are two options left.
    1) God could choose redeem all humanity and thus save the entire world. Every human sin from Adam to the end of time would need to be paid for by God himself. (Truthfully, true fairness would require the sins of all the fallen angels be paid for as well.) Everyone, universally, would be redeemed.

    2) God chooses to have mercy on whom he has mercy and he redeems a remnant of the people. (It's particular and it's not fair. All should be left unredeemed since redemption is undeserved.)
    *Romans 9:14-26*
    What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

    Guido, your complaint is directly against God. You need to be honest with God and then try to reconcile your anger at God with what God tells you about what He is doing. If you ever listen to RC Sproul and his testimony of angrily arguing with his theology professor because he hated what Romans 9 said, you would know you are not alone in the struggle. But, ask yourself if you really want God to be fair? If you must have fairness, then you want either universal redemption or universal damnation. There is no middle ground that is truly fair.
    Be honest with yourself and admit that what you really want is to be in control. You want to be the one who makes the choice. You want to have the role of God, while God plays the role of consultant. You want the same role that the devil wants. Let that sink in.
     
  14. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 25:41, ". . . Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: . . ."

    2 Peter 2:1, ". . . denying the Owner that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . ."
    Jude 1:4, ". . . denying the only Owner God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. . . ."
    2 Peter 2:21, ". . . For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. . . ."

    Mark 14:21, ". . . The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born. . . ."
    Luke 22:20-22, ". . . Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table. And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed! . . ."
     
  15. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    Could this be what your "opponent" is referring to, a list of Bible verses with zero explanation of why or how they might apply to the post they are supposedly a response?
     
  16. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    It may be an excellent quote showing what someone of the Limited Atonement mindset imagines, but it does not demonstrate its assumptions. Rather it sounds like a human concoction based on human reasoning and misunderstanding. Can you correctly guess what post #30 is getting at?
     
  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I suppose. But even when explained it didn't make any difference.
    Do you what explanation for the references and the concept of "deeper damned"?
     
  18. RighteousnessTemperance&

    RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member

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    My original comment had to do with the quote seeming to object to the power of Jesus' blood in a manner similar to the way some object to certain Calvinist interpretations regarding election.

    How the verses apply to that might be useful. What I find so intriguing is that Calvinists evidently don't see the irony, or is it hypocrisy? I'll just go with inconsistency. (Don't we all. :Wink)
     
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  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You mean this post?
    You wrote:
    Intriguing. That sounds suspiciously counter to Calvinist arguments that God is not at fault for the fate of the non-elect he created predestined to be eternally damned.

    The Apostle Paul answers your complaint. His argument is the Calvinist argument.

    What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
    *Romans 9:14-26*

    Note that Owens is simply responding to God's word.
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    I think when John owen made this argument, it was rhetorical, in it was not to be believed. I do not think he did. To me it was a brilliant counter to the first part to his complex question. It happens to be the truth.

    Proverbs 13:18, ". . . He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him. . . ."

    Those who believe in the truth of the general redemption should still read John owen's book, The Death of Death in the Death of Christ.
     
    #40 37818, Dec 8, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2022
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