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  #1  
Old 11-22-2003, 01:57 AM
Southern Southern is offline
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I would like to view and discuss verses (one at a time) that you believe shows that Christ died for each and every individual without distinction and or are against election unto salvation.

In Christ,
Bobby
  #2  
Old 11-22-2003, 04:04 AM
Taufgesinnter Taufgesinnter is offline
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That's a rather loaded way of phrasing it, since the early Christians and others in doctrinal agreement with them against eternal security and limited atonement (called today by the term Arminian) did/do believe in election.

I haven't been spending as much time here lately as I had been, so I don't know how much I'll be able to contribute to this discussion. But as a help to those who would, here is the list of verses that Robert Shank refers to as those commonly misunderstood by Calvinists. Perhaps others here (and I, occasionally) could go over them one at a time.

Matthew 18:23-35
Matthew 24:4, 5, 11-13, 23-26
Matthew 25:1-13
Luke 8:11-15
Luke 11:24-28
Luke 12:42-46
John 6:66-71
John 8:31,32
John 8:51
John 13:8
John 15:1-6
Acts 11:21-23
Acts 14:21,22
Romans 6:11-23
Romans 8:12-14,17
Romans 11:20-22
Romans 14:15-23
I Corinthians 9:23-27
I Corinthians 10:1-21
I Corinthians 11:29-32
I Corinthians 15:1,2
II Corinthians 2:4
II Corinthians 11:2-4
II Corinthians 12:21-13:5
Galatians 5:1-4
Galatians 6:7-9
Philippians 2:12-16
Philippians 3:34-41
Colossians l:21-23
Colossians 2:4-8
I Thessalonians 3:1-8
I Timothy 1:3-7,18-20
I Timothy 2:11-15
I Timothy 4:1-16
I Timothy 5:8
I Timothy 5:11-15,5,6
I Timothy 6:9-12
I Timothy 6:20,21
II Timothy 2:11-18
II Timothy 2:22-26
II Timothy 3:13-15
Hebrews 2:1-3
Hebrews 3:6-19
Hebrews 4:1-16
Hebrews 5:8,9
Hebrews 6:4-20
Hebrews 10:19-21
Hebrews 10:32-39
Hebrews 11:13-16
Hebrews 12:1-17
Hebrews 12:25-29
Hebrews 13:9-14
Hebrews 13:17,7
James 1:12-16
James 1:21,22
James 2:14-26
James 4:4-10
James 5:19-20
I Peter 1:5-9,13
II Peter 2:1-22
II Peter 3:16,17
I John 1:5-2:11
I John 2:15-28
I John 2:29-3:10
I John 5:4,5
I John 5:16
II John 6-9
Jude 5-12
Jude 20,21
Revelation 2:7
Revelation 2:10,11
Revelation 2:17
Revelation 2:18-28
Revelation 3:4,5
Revelation 3:8-12
Revelation 12:11
Revelation 17:14
Revelation 21:7,8
Revelation 22:18,19
  #3  
Old 11-22-2003, 06:46 AM
Psalm145 3 Psalm145 3 is offline
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John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Here's what Richard Baxter wrote over 300 years ago:
"Now I would know of any man, would you believe that Christ died for all men if the Scripture plainly speak it? If you would, do but tell me, what words can you devise or would you wish more plain for it than are there used? Is it not enough that Christ is called the Saviour of the World? You’ll say, but is it of the whole World? Yes, it saith, He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole World. Will you say, but it is not for All men in the World? Yes it saith he died for All men, as well as for all the World. But will you say, it saith not for every man? Yes it doth say, he tasted death for every man. But you may say, It means all the Elect, if it said so of any Non-Elect I would believe. Yes, it speaks of those that denied the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And yet all this seems nothing to men prejudiced."

1 John 4:14
1 John 2:2
1 Timothy 4:10
Hebrews 2:9
2 Peter 2:1

Here is a very interesting sermon to listen to by David Cloud,
The Calvinism Debate, Who is the Enemy?
  #4  
Old 11-22-2003, 12:34 PM
Yelsew
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Quote:
Originally posted by Southern:
I would like to view and discuss verses (one at a time) that you believe shows that Christ died for each and every individual without distinction and or are against election unto salvation.

In Christ,
Bobby
Southern, "one verse at a time" is the worst possible way to study the bible. Just as we modern folk, in our normal conversations, do not say one sentence at a time, but rather speak to each other in thoughts and not mere words, the Holy Scriptures are written in thoughts. Subdividing thoughts into "verses" came long after the original text was written. About the only verse in the bible that cannot easily have its meaning changed in a stand-alone scrutiny is John 11:35, "Jesus wept". I do not see any other possible meaning for that verse than Jesus wept. Of course it doesn't give the cause, or the length of time, or any other setting description, so one must have the context in order to know that Jesus wept for Jerusalem the beloved City of God.

A study of each thought that opposes Calvinism is appropriate, and well worth the effort. So with that in mind. I offer 1 Peter 1:13-25 in which Peter completely refutes the notion that one must be regenerated before believing, and instead clearly states that regeneration is the work of the Word of God.

It also refutes the notion that man is not capable of controlling his behavior, by clearly stating that it is the mind of man whereby man controls his own behavior.
  #5  
Old 11-25-2003, 03:27 PM
Yelsew
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So, It must be true that Calvinists do not read the whole bible. OR maybe that is where they are now, reading the bible so that they can find the truth instead of taking selective verses out of context.
  #6  
Old 11-25-2003, 04:29 PM
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Yelsew:

Reading one chapter or verse of the Bible and interpreting it to mean what you think it means apart from the light of what the whole Bible says about that subject is [unwise and a questionable method]. What, will you refute that Satan knows the Bible even better than you or anyone in the board ?

The Bereans set the example.

Quote:

Acts 17:10-11
10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. 11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Neither do the Scriptures you cited prove that spiritually dead men have ears that have been opened until regenerated for these men and women that Peter were addressing are believers already and not about to become believers.

Prove from these verses, without referring to other books, chapters and verse, that they were spiritually dead men who needed no regenerating to hear the Word and understand it and see the kingdom of God.
_____________________________

Moderator's note: Please refrain from those kinds of comments. They are unnecessary.

[ November 25, 2003, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
  #7  
Old 11-25-2003, 09:00 PM
Yelsew
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Neither do the Scriptures you cited prove that spiritually dead men have ears that have been opened until regenerated for these men and women that Peter were addressing are believers already and not about to become believers.

Prove from these verses, without referring to other books, chapters and verse, that they were spiritually dead men who needed no regenerating to hear the Word and understand it and see the kingdom of God.
Peter is writing to Christians everywhere and he tells us all that our being born again, our regeneration, is the result of God's Holy Word. It should be clear to you that understanding (hearing} and believing, are all matters of the spirit. For without the spirit we are nothing more than animals who can be conditioned to behave a certain way.

We are spirit, which is the life of the flesh, as the flesh has nothing to offer; and truly, when the flesh dies, it decomposes back into dust from whence we were made. It is spirit where belief resides, where reason resides, where self control resides, etc. It is spirit that when disconnected from God by sin, is considered by God to be as if dead. For it has no relationship with Creator God. But when the spirit takes in the Word of God, and the belief system gets changed by the Word, the spirit becomes alive and receptive to the Spirit which is God. Divine spirit and human spirit can once again commune. This makes the once dead spirit alive in Christ!

The Peter is correct, Faith cometh by hearing and Hearing by the word of God. Faith in God is regeneration!
  #8  
Old 11-25-2003, 10:28 PM
PappaBear PappaBear is offline
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Exodus 30:
11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.
14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.
15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.


I believe that these are against Calvinism. First, it was for an atonement. Secondly, it was required of each person! And lastly, it was to be the same for either rich or poor.

Salvation is by repentance and faith. It is required of all. It is the SAME requirement regardless of who you are.
  #9  
Old 11-25-2003, 11:18 PM
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Yelsew:

Peter is not writing to Christians everywhere. He was addressing the believers of the particular church he wrote the letter to but I do agree that whatsoever things were written by all the writers of all scriptures under inspiration of the Spirit were written for the instruction of believers everywhere.

Now, we seem to be agreed that regeneration is thru God's Word, however, I disagree that it is a result of one's belief. Rather, God having regenerated whom He wishes to regenerate, that person now is able to both see the Kingdom of God with spiritually alive ears.

From reading one of your posts I get the impression that you hold the view that there is something good in man which served as the basis for God's sending His only begotten Son to save man.

Sadly, the scriptures disagree with you. Consider the following:

Quote:

Psalms 58:3 - The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Job 7:17- What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?

Job 15:14 - 16 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? 15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. 16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?

Romans 7:14-25
14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow F26 not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
The spirit, you say, is the life of the flesh, but that is not what the Bible says, either.

Quote:

Leviticus 17:11, 13-14
For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust. 14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
God does not merely consider the spirit (or soul) as if dead, it is dead. All mankind is dead in sins and trespasses, unable to submit themselves to God in God's terms and way. They seek to be accepted of God according to their ways, presenting their own righteousness, thinking, as you do, that there is worth in them, otherwise, why should God send His only Son to redeem them ? Well, here's why:

Quote:

Exodus 15:13 - Thou in thy mercy hast led forth the people which thou hast redeemed: thou hast guided them in thy strength unto thy holy habitation.

Exodus 33:19 - And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Luke 1:77-79 - To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by F3 the remission of their sins, 78 Through the tender F4 mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us, 79 To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.


Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Ro 9:16 - Show Context
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Ro 9:18 - Show Context
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ro 9:23 - Show Context
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Titus 3:5 - not by works of righteousnesses which we have done, but according to his mercy, he saved us.
Mercy. That is the reason God saved anyone at all. Is anyone deserving of salvation apart from God's mercy ? No. Not one.

God's mercy is an affront to fallen man's heart and pride because mercy means that he has no part at all, no merit at all, not one iota of participation in the pardon he gets.

The Doctrine of Grace is an affront to humanists, which Arminians are, really, because it shows them to their face that their salvation, if they indeed are saved, is not a cooperative effort, not a joint project, between them and the Triune God.
  #10  
Old 11-25-2003, 11:49 PM
PappaBear PappaBear is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by pinoybaptist:
Peter is not writing to Christians everywhere. He was addressing the believers of the particular church he wrote the letter to
A simple view of 1Peter 1:1 should solve this:

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,"

Peter is writing to strangers (Gentiles) scattered throughout these different Roman provinces. By his own writing, it is not addressed to any one particular church.

Quote:
pinoybaptist: The spirit, you say, is the life of the flesh, but that is not what the Bible says, either. ... God does not merely consider the spirit (or soul) as if dead, it is dead. All mankind is dead in sins and trespasses, unable to submit themselves to God in God's terms and way.
Can the dead hear? John 5:25 says that the time now is that the dead hear -- notice not the "regenerated", nor the living, but those who are then dead do hear. How do you explain this?

Quote:
pinoybaptist: The Doctrine of Grace is an affront to humanists, which Arminians are, really, because it shows them to their face that their salvation, if they indeed are saved, is not a cooperative effort, not a joint project, between them and the Triune God.
The Bible is an affront to HyperCals who refuse to allow God to state for Himself who He will save and who He will not. If God chooses to say, "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool," then who are we to dispute it? If it is Jesus Christ who sets the condition in Luke 13:3,5 of repentance, why would anyone dare tell Him nay?
 

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