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Featured Calvin: God is the Author of Sin

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Agent47, Jan 10, 2017.

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  1. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    As I shared with @JonC , I came to inescapable conclusion that in Calvinism, God invented/designed and effected sin vide his agents (creatures).

    But this I can't find in scriptures not in God in Flesh,Jesus Christ.

    Now, it's quite possible my conclusion are flawed like Mary correctly finding an empty tomb but erroneously concluding Jesus' body stolen. So I will try and simply explain why I arrived at this conclusion, and why it is the only logical conclusion possible, such that to hold anything else, Calvin must have been wrong.

    For this, I will focus on John Calvin's works.

    Again, this is not to find fault in Calvin but rather to demonstrate that my conclusions are valid.

    To start with, I think I should define what I mean by authoring sin.

    Author means the one who originates an idea. If I can answer 'whose idea was it' I have found the author.

    The author is not necessarily the one who executes the idea but the fact that they came up with it remains.

    An example;
    Exodus 1:22 (KJV)
    And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive    .

    Who authored this heinous act?

    Was it the Hebrews? No
    What about the soldiers who carried it out? No. It is irrelevant whether they were coerced into it; they never came up with the idea.

    What about Pharaoh who most probably never killed any Hebrew infant?
    His intent was executed. So he is the mastermind;he authored the crime.

    In short,
    If something is decreed,and as a result its intention is executed,the author of the decree is necessarily the author of the fulfilled/executed intention.

    Obviously God authors His own decrees. And the question we need to interrogate is whether according to Calvin God decreed/authored sin.

    So John Calvin, did God author sin?
    No? But did he not decree sin?

    This is not about what Calvin was not directly propagating, but rather what He was effectively communicating.
     
    #1 Agent47, Jan 10, 2017
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  2. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Let him, therefore, who would beware of such unbelief, always bear in mind, that there is no random power, or agency, or motion in the creatures, who are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that nothing happens but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed~Inst 16:3
    https://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.iii.xvii.html

    Random power
    Agency
    Motion

    All are 'knowingly and willingly' decreed
     
    #2 Agent47, Jan 10, 2017
  3. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    From the Baptist 1689 Confession of faith. Note particularly Paragraph 4:

    Chapter 5: Of Divine Providence
    1._____ God the good Creator of all things, in his infinite power and wisdom doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were created, according unto his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will; to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness, and mercy.
    ( Hebrews 1:3; Job 38:11; Isaiah 46:10, 11; Psalms 135:6; Matthew 10:29-31; Ephesians 1:11 )
    2._____ Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly; so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without his providence; yet by the same providence he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.
    ( Acts 2:23; Proverbs 16:33; Genesis 8:22 )
    3._____ God, in his ordinary providence maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them at his pleasure.
    ( Acts 27:31, 44; Isaiah 55:10, 11; Hosea 1:7; Romans 4:19-21; Daniel 3:27 )
    4._____ The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.
    ( Romans 11:32-34; 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Kings 19:28; Psalms 76;10; Genesis 1:20; Isaiah 10:6, 7, 12; Psalms 1:21; 1 John 2:16 )
     
    #3 Martin Marprelate, Jan 10, 2017
  4. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    What of the Fall?
    This is long I apologize but it is necessary

    They deny that it is ever said in distinct terms, God decreed that Adam should perish by his revolt... They say that, in accordance with free-will, he was to be the architect of his own fortune, that God had decreed nothing but to treat him according to his desert. If this frigid fiction is received, where will be the omnipotence of God, by which, according to his secret counsel on which every thing depends, he rules over all? ... As this cannot be ascribed to nature, it is plain that it is owing to the wonderful counsel of God... I again ask how it is that the fall of Adam involves so many nations with their infant children in eternal death without remedy unless that it so seemed meet to God?... The decree, I admit, is, dreadful; and yet it is impossible to deny that God foreknow what the end of man was to be before he made him, and foreknew, because he had so ordained by his decree... Nor ought it to seem absurd when I say, that God not only foresaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it. ~Inst 23:7
    https://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.v.xxiv.html

    • Freewill at the garden of Eden is frigid fiction.
    • Everything depends on His secret counsel
    • The Fall is the wonderful counsel of God
    • Infants children in eternal death aka infant reprobation:(
    • He arranged the Fall at His own pleasure.
    No comments
     
    #4 Agent47, Jan 10, 2017
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I am not prepared to argue over what Calvin may or may not have believed and/or written. There is a pile of stuff on which I disagree with him. I am, however, certainly prepared to argue for the Sovereignty of God in all things. The alternative is to have a powerless god who wrings his hands ineffectually as his creatures rebel against him and all his plans go up in smoke. God forbid that I should ever suppose such a thing!

    I posted above from the Baptist 1689 Confession. Knowing that some folk prefer the earlier 1644/46 Confession, here are the relevant extracts:

    III. God had decreed in Himself, before the world was, concerning all things, whether necessary, accidental or voluntary, with all the circumstances of them, to work, dispose, and bring about all things according to the counsel of His own will, to His glory: (Yet without being the author of sin, or having fellowship with any therein) in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, unchangeableness, power, and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree: And God hath before the foundation of the world, foreordained some men to eternal life, through Jesus Christ, to the praise and glory of His grace; leaving the rest in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His justice.
    Isa. 46:10; Eph. 1:11, Rom. 11:33, Ps. 115:3; 135:6, 33:15; 1 Sam. 10:9, 26, Prov. 21:6; Exod. 21:13; Prov. 16:33, Ps. 144, Isa. 45:7, Jer. 14:22, Matt. 6:28, 30; Col. 1:16, 17; Num. 23:19, 20; Rom. 3:4; Jer. 10:10; Eph. 1:4,5; Jude 4, 6; Prov. 16:4.

    IV. In the beginning God made all things very good; created man after His own image, filled with all meet perfection of nature, and free from all sin; but long he abode not in this honor; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to seduce first Eve, then by her seducing Adam; who without any compulsion, in eating the forbidden fruit, transgressed the command of God, and fell, whereby death came upon all his posterity; who now are conceived in sin, and by nature the children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subject of death, and other miseries in this world, and for ever, unless the Lord Jesus Christ set them free.
    Gen. 1:1, Col. 1:16, Isa. 45:12, 1 Cor. 15:45, 46; Eccles. 7:29; Gen. 3:1,4,5; 2 Cor. 11:3, 1 Tim. 2:14; Gal. 3:22; Rom. 5:12, 18, 19, 6:22; Eph. 2:3.

    V. God in His infinite power and wisdom, doth dispose all things to the end for which they were created; that neither good nor evil befalls any by chance, or without His providence; and that whatsoever befalls the elect, is by His appointment, for His glory, and their good.
    Job 38:11; Isa. 46:10,11, Eccles. 3:14, Mark 10:29,30; Exod. 21:13; Prov. 16:33, Rom. 8:28.

    VI. All the elect being loved of God with an everlasting love, are redeemed, quickened, and saved, not by themselves, nor their own works, lest any man should boast, but, only and wholly by God, of His own free grace and mercy, through Jesus Christ, who is made unto us by God, wisdom, righteousness, sanctification, and redemption, and all in all, that he that rejoiceth, might rejoice in the Lord.
    Jer. 31:2; Eph. 1:3, 7, 2:8,9; 1 Thess. 5:9; Acts 13:48; 2 Cor. 5:21; Jer. 9:23,24; 1 Cor. 1:30,31; Jer. 23:6.

    VII. And this is life eternal, that we might know Him the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He hath sent. And on the contrary, the Lord will render vengeance, in flaming fire, to them that know not God, and obey not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
    John 17:3; Heb. 5:9, 2 Thess. 1:8; John 6:36.

    Anyone wishing to take issue with these statements needs to deal with the Scriptures upon which they are based.
     
    #5 Martin Marprelate, Jan 10, 2017
  6. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Moving on

    It seems absurd that man should be blinded by the will and command of God, and yet be forthwith punished for his blindness.Hence, recourse is had to the evasion that this is done only by the permission, and not also by the will of God....That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction, is proved by numberless clear passages of Scripture.~Inst 18:1
    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/institutes.iii.xix.html

    Hence, recourse is had to the evasion that this is done only by the permission, and not also by the will of God
    This is even more interesting. Calvin will have none of permission....No, it is WILL/DIRECT CAUSE.

    I'm not as eloquent in English though I'm certainly advantaged in coming from a British Commonwealth country(Kenya). As such English is not my first language and I may be reading my own things into John Calvin.

    Throw in zero theological education and you may have ignorance Incarnate right here.

    So I request anyone who would draw contrary opinion after reading through these excerpts to lead me.

    What else was Calvin doing other than charging God with DIRECT authorship of sin and its twin brother evil?

    In other words,what would Calvin write to charge God with authoring sin apart from this?

    Alternatively, are there parts of his writings that negate or contradict this? Share them

    How Unsearchable are the depths of the darkest pits of exhaustive determinism!
     
    #6 Agent47, Jan 10, 2017
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  7. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Isn't it clear from the subject of this thread, and OP that the subject is John Calvin?

    Stop spamming:p:p
     
    #7 Agent47, Jan 10, 2017
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Just as a side note (I know you are already aware of this), the conclusion that predestination results in God as the author of evil was also James Arminius' objection to Calvinism and the reason he sought to refine what he took to as error.

    Anyway, I do have a question (both of you and of Calvin). How are you defining sin and evil, and how did Calvin define sin and evil?

    I ask because there are a couple of ways to determine what is offered both here and in the Institutes. God is, for example, said to have committed evil against Israel. But this "evil" is not along the lines of sin/evil because it is against man and not God himself. I also consider things like the early persecution of the Church. I think that we would all agree that the persecutions ordered under Nero were an evil committed by Rome against the Christians. But at the same time I doubt many of us would neglect to see a divine purpose in this as it was through these things, and enduring these things, that the Church grew.

    I think of the Jews who had Jesus crucified. Paul and John tell the Jews that this was an evil that they committed, but that it was also decreed from God from the beginning. They place the act as sin on the part of the Jews, but as God's redemptive plan on the part of God.
     
    #8 JonC, Jan 10, 2017
  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Very well then: why do you not just follow through your quotations from Calvin?

    5. Now, should some Manes or Cœlestinus [The French adds, “ou autre heretique;”—or other heretic] come forward to arraign Divine Providence (see sec. 8), I say with Paul, that no account of it can be given, because by its magnitude it far surpasses our understanding. Is there any thing strange or absurd in this? Would we have the power of God so limited as to be unable to do more than our mind can comprehend? I say with Augustine, that the Lord has created those who, as he certainly foreknew, were to go to destruction, and he did so because he so willed. Why he willed it is not ours to ask, as we cannot comprehend, nor can it become us even to raise a controversy as to the justice of the divine will. Whenever we speak of it, we are speaking of the supreme standard of justice. (See August. Ep. 106). But when justice clearly appears, why should we raise any question of injustice? Let us not, therefore, be ashamed to stop their mouths after the example of Paul. Whenever they presume to carp, let us begin to repeat: Who are ye, miserable men, that bring an accusation against God, and bring it because he does not adapt the greatness of his works to your meagre capacity? As if every thing must be perverse that is hidden from the flesh. The immensity of the divine judgments is known to you by clear experience. You know that they are called “a great deep” (Ps. 36:6). Now, look at the narrowness of your own minds and say whether it can comprehend the decrees of God. Why then should you, by infatuated inquisitiveness, plunge yourselves into an abyss which reason itself tells you will prove your destruction? Why are you not deterred, in some degree at least, by what the Book of Job, as well as the Prophetical books declare concerning the incomprehensible wisdom and dreadful power of God? If your mind is troubled, decline not to embrace the counsel of Augustine, “You a man expect an answer from me: I also am a man. Wherefore, let us both listen to him who says, ‘O man, who art thou?’ Believing ignorance is better than presumptuous knowledge. Seek merits; you will find nought but punishment. O the height! Peter denies, a thief believes. O the height! Do you ask the reason? I will tremble at the height. Reason you, I will wonder; dispute you, I will believe. I see the height; I cannot sound the depth. Paul found rest, because he found wonder. He calls the judgments of God ‘unsearchable;’ and have you come to search them? He says that his ways are ‘past finding out,’ and do you seek to find them out?” (August. de Verb. Apost. Serm. 20).

    There you are! The Scriptures clearly state that God is sovereign in all things, and yet that God is not the Author of evil. Why will you not simply accept the word of God? Calvin was a mere man and some of his expressions may be infelicitous, but his teaching on this subject is right on the money.

    Let is now turn to the Scriptures. If the most wicked act in history was the trial, torture and death of our blessed Lord, did God ordain it, or did He merely permit it? Acts 4:27-28.

    27. 'For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus Christ, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together.........
    28. .......to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined beforehand to be done.'

    I say that you have to believe both these verses absolutely. If you believe verse 27 but not v.28, you have a nasty little conspiracy to slay an innocent Man, and God is sitting by impotently, unable to prevent it. Perhaps, because he's such a great chess-player, He turns the situation round to His own advantage, but He's reacting to circumstances outside of His control.
    If, on the other hand, you believe v.28 and not v.27, you make God the author of evil and men and women are merely ciphers. To gain a proper understanding, you have to accept both verses, and you will see that men are fully responsible and culpable, and God fully sovereign. Can we explain it? Perhaps not, but we accept it because the Bible teaches it. To quote Rogers and Hammerstein:

    'Who can explain it, who can tell you why?
    Fools may give you reasons; wise men never try!'
     
    #9 Martin Marprelate, Jan 10, 2017
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  10. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    One of these fine days I will examine Arminius with a fine toothcomb.

    Sin is simply rebellion against God's Law or commandment. Not sure there is another definition.

    Evil is slightly more philosophical. For this I focussed on sin to avoid definitions from needlessly derailing the thread.

    If you don't mind, let's stick to sin.

    God fully intended to offer Jesus as a sacrifice for sin. It does not follow that He authored every wicked intent used to obtain that end.

    Say I deliver my daughter to wicked men to do as they please knowing their evil intent. I'm only the author of offering her up, and not the wicked schemes executed by wicked men.

    Besides, we all agree that God can and has turned results of men's independently thought wicked schemes to accomplish His purpose. It does not make Him the author of these schemes; He merely employed them, which is different from inventing and infallibly orchestrating them.
     
    #10 Agent47, Jan 10, 2017
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  11. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Of course they do. But sovereignty is no authorship. God by sovereign decree made man with free/independent will. He is not the author of independent thoughts man comes up with, else man is really not free, and in doing whatever he does, he is in God's perfect will, which means God eternally damns men for being in His perfect will.

    Where have I rejected scriptures?
    Please stop derailing this thread with lies and spam. Thanks

    Has anyone suggested he was mollusks?
    Irrelevant to my clear objective which is simple;
    'God is the Author of Sin', thus sayeth John Calvin


    Please, I have enough bibles with me. Read the OP and stop spamming.

    If you wish to appeal to mystery, that's your problem. Watch from the sidelines.
     
    #11 Agent47, Jan 10, 2017
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I’ve read a bit of his works, but perhaps not with so fine a toothed comb as I would have liked. Given his status and reputation as a scholar, it is a bit odd that he is basically ignored today.
    I believe there is. In Romans Paul presents sin as existing apart from the Law and apart from an actual commandment. In fact, the Law was given to magnify the sins of those who sinned differently than Adam’s transgression. I believe that sin is a rebelliousness or an act of defiance against God.
    Yes, I think you are right here.
    Joseph told his brothers that they meant their actions for evil, but God meant it for good. I look on the brothers as acting freely and sinfully. But at the same time I believe that God decreed (not merely ordained) that his brothers freely choose to betray Joseph.

    But I do understand, even though I disagree with, the idea that God uses rather than determines that these things occur. Or, as one of my favorite Arminians taught – that occurring God ordains these things to his purpose. Again, that is not what I believe to be true but I understand the proposition.
     
    #12 JonC, Jan 10, 2017
  13. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    I picked this portion of your quote because you indicated that account could swing either way;God ordaining or merely allowing and utilizing.

    Without tons of proof texting, I think all the scriptures I know are unambiguous on God's nature; He is Light,in Him is no darkness (1John 1:5),and also, the heart that devises wicked imagination is an abomination to Him (Proverbs 6:18). So if I had to pick between interpretations, I'd go with the one more consistent with what I know about God from elsewhere.
     
    #13 Agent47, Jan 10, 2017
  14. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Calvin appeals to mystery often even as Martin attempted to advance above, probably an indirect way of asking me to back off.

    Now, in Christianity or theology there is a place for mystery.....a huge place. God self-existing(Uncaused Cause) Holy trinity,resurrection, book of Revelation, are topics beyond our comprehensive grasp for us. Lacking full explanation means some of their aspects are mystery. We may also try and speculate.

    But I do find Calvin attempting to employ mystery to spin away contradictions.

    I think it's clear that at least in Institutes,
    1. God authors all that happens.
    2. God is not the author of Sin.

    But these two propositions are a logical contradiction since sin is part of 'all that happens'

    This is no paradox, or appearance of contradiction; this is a hopeless contradiction, and appealing to mystery is simply ignoring the bankruptcy of your theology.

    I've heard of criminals who claim God ordered them to carry out their crimes as their defense. Appealing to mystery to salvage your doctrine from contraction is no different.
     
    #14 Agent47, Jan 10, 2017
  15. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Scripture please.
    Calvin does not say that God is the author of sin as I showed in my quote.
    That is nothing to boast about. You should read them.
    If you think I am spamming, you are free to report my posts.
    It is Calvin who appeals to mystery. If you wish to deal with Calvin's thinking you have to deal with the mystery. Stop spamming :p
     
    #15 Martin Marprelate, Jan 10, 2017
  16. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    Because God is sovereign yet;
    1. God is Light and in Him is no darkness (1 John 1:5 )
    2. A heart that devises wickedness is an abomination to Him (Proverbs 6:18)
    3. Israel committed sins God never imagined (Jer 32:35)
    4. Satan and not God is the father of lies (John 8:44)

    Meaning he is Sovereign without authoring specific acts of His creation.

    How many baptistboard.com websites do we have in the world?
    (A) positive integer less than two
    (B) one

    What's the difference between (A) and (B)?

    Read up the OP and stop being childish else I won't engage you further.

    I know better; I will ignore you.

    I have already tackled Calvin's mystery
     
    #16 Agent47, Jan 10, 2017
  17. Agent47

    Agent47 Active Member
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    @JonC , I believe this thread has accomplished its purpose which was to demonstrate that Calvin charged God with authoring sin from his writings.

    As I said, this is one of the reasons I abandoned Calvinism which you have wisely clarified that it's bigger than John Calvin.

    While you point is factual, I do find next to negligible Calvinists who openly depart from this major philosophy of Calvinism. Instead, many bury it in the footnotes and engage in oft times ridiculously silly arguments to uphold it.

    Which means the doctrine is terribly embarrassing and at the same time essential to Calvinism. Is Calvinism redeemable in absence of exhaustive determinism? No IMO.

    Time to move on to another topic


    PS
    How did Calvin end up with such a construct? I don't think he was guided by scriptures as I lack any supporting him. I think he deduced exhaustive determinism from his fatal misunderstanding of foreknowledge.

    He reasoned that the only way God's foreknowledge can be certain/accurate 101% is if God caused it. Somewhere along the lines of Abraham Lincoln's 'the best way to predict the future is to create it'

    Calvin confused knowledge with cause and the rest is history( actually theological circus)
     
    #17 Agent47, Jan 10, 2017
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We are calvinists who hold with all that the Bible affirms, and some that Calvin himself did!

    And that is clear to point out to him that God cannot and did not author sin and evil, for He is light and there dwells no darkness within Him!
     
    #18 Yeshua1, Jan 10, 2017
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Some Calvinists stte that God decreed the Fall, others tha He decreed the Cross due to the Fall, but NO calvinists, including Calvin, would make God the author of sin and evil!
     
    #19 Yeshua1, Jan 10, 2017
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I hp
    Sorry, brother, for not replying sooner as was my intent. The school had called and my son was taken to the hospital by ambulance and I was there for the most part of the morning. He’s fine and at home, so I’ll venture a couple of comments in what may continue to be a worthwhile discussion.

    I think that there may be a couple of points you can address to make your argument stronger.

    First, when we determine that a person is disingenuous in his conclusions (here that Calvin comes to one conclusion but purposes the opposite) then we generate (as Squire’s signature says…or did at one time) more heat than light. As Calvin is not here to defend himself, we have to accept him at his word. We can question his presuppositions, logic, and conclusions, but not that he believed the doctrines he claimed to hold. John Calvin did not believe that his view of predestination made God the author of evil, although it does seem he believed that God is the cause of all things. Here it may be wise to discern between event and motivation.

    Second, Calvin was indeed guided by Scripture, but this does not mean that he interpreted those passages through which he drew support and conclusions correctly. I think that perhaps this is where value can be had – in revisiting passages concerning providence and testing those doctrines we would believe (regardless of where one ends up on the issue).
     
    #20 JonC, Jan 10, 2017
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