Confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the RCC mass

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jul 3, 2016.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    For reasons I cannot explain utilyan brought this subject up on the "change of the Sabbath" thread -- so I am starting this as its own topic here...

    SDAs teach a once-for-all completed "atoning sacrifice" on the cross just as we see in 1 John 2:2 "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only - but for the sins of the whole world" NIV

    Sacrificed - once -- and no longer participating in any sacrifice

    Heb 10
    8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

    11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God

    By contrast the RCC argues for "confecting the body blood soul and divinity of Christ" every mass -- not remembering a past event but participating in the sacrifice as each mass they confect - "the body blood soul and divinity of Christ"


    1374 of the CCC:

    Quote:

    The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained.

    The entire 1374 statement in the Catechism is as follows.

    1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201 In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203

    Cath Catechism online – Eucharist section –

    http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p2s2c1a3.htm

    Pope John Paul II


    John Paul II – without formatting


    The priest offers the holy Sacrifice in persona Christi; this means more than offering "in the name of' or "in place of" Christ. In persona means in specific sacramental identification with "the eternal High Priest"[42] who is the author and principal subject of this sacrifice of His, a sacrifice in which, in truth, nobody can take His place. Only He -- only Christ -- was able and is always able to be the true and effective "expiation for our sins and . . . for the sins of the whole world."[43] Only His sacrifice -- and no one else's -- was able and is able to have a "propitiatory power" before God, the Trinity, and the transcendent holiness. Awareness of this reality throws a certain light on the character and significance of the priest celebrant who, by confecting the holy Sacrifice and acting "in persona Christi," is sacramentally (and ineffably) brought into that most profound sacredness, and made part of it, spiritually linking with it in turn all those participating in the eucharistic assembly.


    http://www.newadvent.org/library/docs_jp02dc.htm
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    The blood sacrifice demanded in atonement was completed at the cross - the atoning sacrifice completed - once for all -- after which there is no such thing as getting Christ back into sacrifice.

    And in fact there was never any such thing as "confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ" ever! Christ's sacrifice was "once for all" and offered up "once for all time" -- and there is no such thing as a church office on earth as "priest" for Hebrews 8 says even of Christ "IF He were on earth today He would not be a priest at all"

    But some "believe" that they worship God in the form of that bread - after having confected Him - body, blood, soul and divinity. (Imagine if you will - confecting the soul of God).

    So then what do "they say" when confronted with the option that just maybe their belief in that regard is in error??


    The Faith Explained – A bestselling RC commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II by Leo J.

    Complete with papal “imprimatur” -

    Trese is promoted as “A standard reference for every Catholic home and library”. Complete with Papal Imprimatur -- Quote from page 350-351

    Parenthetical inserts “mine”

    ================================== begin quote
    The Faith Explained – Page 350

    “On this, the last night before His death, Jesus is making His last will and testament.
    Ibid. Page 351

    A last will is no place for figurative speech (in the Catholic opinion); under the best of circumstances (human) courts sometimes have difficulty in interpreting a testator’s intentions aright, even without the confusion of symbolic language. Moreover, since Jesus is God, He knew that as a result of His words that night, untold millions of people would be worshiping him through the centuries under the appearance of the bread. if he would not really be present under those appearances, the worshipers would be adoring a mere piece of bread, and would be guilty of idolatry,. Certainly that is something that God Himself would set the stage for, by talking in obscure figurative speech.

    IF Jesus was using a metaphor; if what He really meant was, “This bread is a sort of SYMBOL of My Body, and this is a SYMBOL of My Blood (not yet spilled – so they were not then participating in sacrifice); hereafter, any time that My followers get together and partake of the bread and wine like this, they will be honoring Me and representing My death”; if that IS what Jesus meant (as many protestants claim), then the apostles got Him all wrong (in the Catholic option here). And through their misunderstanding (can the Catholic document blame the Apostles instead of the Catholic church’s tradition that interjects this RC teaching?),mankind has for centuries worshiped A PIECE OF BREAD as God
    ===================================== end quote

    How SERIOUS do they take this worship of bread “as though it were a god”??
     
  3. utilyan

    utilyan
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    Well I can accept I've made a misrepresentation. SO let me tell you how I got it, and then you can correct me.

    I'm getting this from Wikipedia Seventh Day Adventism. So if you deny it that's good with me:

    Heres a link to the article.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavenly_sanctuary

    In Seventh-day Adventist theology, the heavenly sanctuary teaching asserts that many aspects of the Hebrew tabernacle or sanctuary are representative of heavenly realities. In particular, Jesus is regarded as the High Priest who provides cleansing for human sins by the sacrificial shedding of his blood. The doctrine grew out of the church's interpretation of the 1844 Great Disappointment. As a whole, it is unique to Seventh-day Adventism, although other Christians share many of the typological identifications made by the epistle to the Hebrews. One major aspect which is completely unique to Adventism is that the day of atonement is a type or foreshadowing of the investigative judgment. Technically, the "heavenly sanctuary" is an umbrella term which includes the investigative judgment, Christ's ministry in heaven before then, the understanding of Daniel 8:14, etc. However, it is often spoken of interchangeably with the investigative judgment.
    The earthly Most Holy Place was entered once a year by the High Priest on the Day of Atonement to offer atonement for the Israelites. Adventists believe this is a "type" of Jesus' ministry in heaven. In 1844 Jesus moved from the Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary into the Holy of Holies to begin a final atonement for humanity. This is understood as a change in two phases of Jesus' ministry.




    24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
    There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)[1]


    https://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/restoration/christs-ministry-in-the-heavenly-sanctuary/

    The Doctrines of Restoration.



    Accordingly, Jesus ministered in the holy place of the heavenly sanctuary from his ascension until 1844. During this time the forgiven sins of Christians were transferred to the heavenly sanctuary. In 1844 he entered the most holy place, or holy of holies, to cleanse the heavenly sanctuary of its defilement. In the final judgment, the sins of all true Christians will be transferred to Satan, who is symbolised by the scapegoat.[2][3]





    Carefully read the wording used. The attonement is in 2 phases according to SDA.

    According to the text Jesus Christ as made it available for everyone "once and for all" BUT he hasn't finished the atonement.

    He only entered the 2nd phase in 1844 when the end of the world prophecy FAILED.

    Here is more from wiki:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Investigative_judgment

    The investigative judgment is a unique Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, which asserts that the divine judgment of professed Christians has been in progress since 1844. It is intimately related to the history of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and was described by the church's prophet and pioneer Ellen G. White as one of the pillars of Adventist belief.[1][2] It is a major component of the broader Adventist understanding of the "heavenly sanctuary", and the two are sometimes spoken of interchangeably.
    The investigative judgment teaching was the focus of controversy within the denomination in 1980, when Adventist theologian Desmond Ford had his ministerial credentials withdrawn by the Church after openly criticizing the doctrine. While the Adventist mainstream believe in the doctrine and the church has reaffirmed its basic position on the doctrine since 1980, some of those within the church's more liberal progressive wing continue to be critical of the teaching.
    According to a 2002 worldwide survey, local church leaders estimated 86% of church members accept the doctrine, although 35% believe there may be more than one interpretation of the sanctuary belief.[3]



    While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth.
    — The Great Controversy, chapter 24



    You can look on the wiki I'm merely presenting a point one of the criticism made. Which is Jesus Christ didn't finish a complete atonement on the cross.

    And that's the best grounds for Saturday worship. Because it means the resurrection didn't do anything, the attonement is not done.



    Now Bob I'm willing to accept your better explanation. I want to hear it.

    I cited wiki who cited SDA general conference. And I cited the SDA manual.
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan
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    The Eucharist. We believe Is Jesus/God completely. The entire Catholic Faith's foundation.

    All the Early Church Fathers believed the same.


    Malachi 1
    10“Oh that there were one among you who would shut the gates, that you might not uselessly kindle fire on My altar! I am not pleased with you,” says the LORD of hosts, “nor will I accept an offering from you. 11“For from the rising of the sun even to its setting, My name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense is going to be offered to My name, and a grain offering that is pure; for My name will be great among the nations,” says the LORD of hosts.


    Here God is saying a prophecy that All day along basicly 24/7 his name will be great around the world, And there will be incense offered to him and a offering that is PURE.

    Now the incense part we can handle pretty easy AND DO. I wonder do you guys use incense?

    The hard part is this PURE OFFERING. Where are we going to find a PURE OFFERING to offer God 24/7 around the world?

    There is only one pure offering Jesus Christ.

    ===

    The Didache
    "Assemble on the Lord’s day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until he has been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23–24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, ‘Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations’ [Mal. 1:11, 14]" (Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).
    Pope Clement I
    "Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5 [A.D. 80]).
    Ignatius of Antioch
    "Make certain, therefore, that you all observe one common Eucharist; for there is but one Body of our Lord Jesus Christ, and but one cup of union with his Blood, and one single altar of sacrifice—even as there is also but one bishop, with his clergy and my own fellow servitors, the deacons. This will ensure that all your doings are in full accord with the will of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 4 [A.D. 110]).
    Justin Martyr
    "God speaks by the mouth of Malachi, one of the twelve [minor prophets], as I said before, about the sacrifices at that time presented by you: ‘I have no pleasure in you, says the Lord, and I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to the going down of the same, my name has been glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering, for my name is great among the Gentiles . . . [Mal. 1:10–11]. He then speaks of those Gentiles, namely us [Christians] who in every place offer sacrifices to him, that is, the bread of the Eucharist and also the cup of the Eucharist" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 41 [A.D. 155]).
    Irenaeus
    "He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles" (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).


    Lets look at some bible lines:


    1 Corinthians 11
    20Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.

    Ok when we do communion were are not there to eat the Lord's Supper. Not there to eat food. If you are there to eat just bread and wine......Don't you have a house to eat and drink?



    1 Corinthians 11
    27Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord.


    Now this is a piece of cake! (pun)

    If I believed eating plain bread and wine with disrespect is disrespecting the body and blood of the Lord, Then most definitely this would be some from of IDOLATRY.

    This simply does not fly. The only worthy manner is it is the body and blood.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Although I have found numerous mistakes with wiki on the subject of SDA doctrine - I will agree that the statement above is accurate as I understand it.

    Our statement on Christ's ministry is as you have stated -

    24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:
    There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)[1]


    https://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/restoration/christs-ministry-in-the-heavenly-sanctuary/


    That is also accurate in stating SDA teaching/doctrine




    "in the final judgment" is the key phrase - and it does not refer to Satan paying the debt for the saints - but rather paying his own debt - the debt for his sin in tempting the saints. In SDA teaching the amount of guilt that Satan has in tempting the saints is greater than the amount of guilt he would have in tempting the lost because the lost already choose him as their leader.

    That guilt could not be known in the Dan 7 courtroom - until the Daniel 7 event where "judgment is passed in favor of the saints". It is at the Great White Throne judgment in Rev 20 after the 1000 years are over that this guilt - this debt is paid by Satan.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    That is true. The atoning sacrifice (1 John 2:2) completed once for all at the cross - but the atoning work of Christ as High Priest - Lev 16, Heb 8:1-6 begins at his ascension into heaven.

    In Lev 16 it is not just the atoning sacrifice that completed atonement - but also the work of the High Priest that takes place after the animal is slain - that completes the full scope of atonement.

    Many/most Christian groups focus only on the "Atoning Sacrifice" -- which of course - was fully completed at the cross even by SDA standards.

    True - in the larger definition of the term "Atonement" that we see in Lev 16 that goes BEYOND the "Atoning Sacrifice" - that atonement process in heaven - the work of the High Priest shown in Lev 16 and affirmed in Heb 8:1-6 as STARTING when Christ went to heaven - goes on ..

    There was NEVER an 1844 prediction made by SDAs regarding atonement in 1844 that failed.

    There was NEVER a statement by the Millerites that the 1844 event was about the High Priestly work of Christ starting in heaven in 1844.

    You are conflating two different groups -- two different statements about the 1844 event and what it was supposed to be - as if they were one. That would be historic-revisionism.
     
  7. BobRyan

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    That is true as well.

    This is true - at almost every decade in church history at least one person has been a "detractor" or "critique" -- far from me to deny such a thing.

    (Since the 1880's the SDA church has gone on to become the 5th largest Christian denomination in the world according to Christianity Today article in 2015. Partly benefited by Ford's exit.)

    Agreed that is accurate.

    They gloss over the "detail" that when non-SDAs speak of the "atonement" on the cross - they mean the "Atoning Sacrifice" of 1 John 2:2 - completed at the cross. SDAs also agree that in that narrow aspect of the Bible doctrine - that atoning sacrifice - that in fact it was completed at the cross.

    The "unique" feature in Adventism is that the term "Atonement" is NOT limitted to just the Atoning Sacrifice - but rather includes ALL the Lev 16 work of the 'Day of Atonement" including the Heb 8:1-6 work of Christ that started at His ascension.

    Not at all true. SDAs never argue that the atonement is not done and that is why we need to worship on the Bible Sabbath instead of following man-made-traditions and breaking the commandment.

    Nor do SDAs ever argue that the resurrection "Did not prove anything" or "did not do anything". Far from it - we claim that the crucifixion itself was the great victory and the resurrection was simply the outward confirmation of that "It is finished" victory at the cross.

    But we do not argue that Christ was born - weekly, or that he died - weekly - or that he was resurrected weekly - or that he did any of that on a 7-day cycle.

    Your sources are pretty accurate in my view - but your conclusion misses a few key details as I show here.
     
  8. BobRyan

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    We do not offer literal grain offerings or literal incense, nor literal burnt offerings in worship.
     
  9. Adonia

    Adonia
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    Isn't that the most beautiful, concise, and true explanation about the Eucharist from the Catechism of the Catholic Church? I haven't heard it explained any better by anyone. We are removed from the constraints of time itself and find ourselves right there at the foot of the Cross at each and every Mass. What a gift!
     
  10. BobRyan

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    1. nothing there about "Confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ".
    2. Not the Bible.
    3. Conveniently "Found" - 1875 A.D.
    4. Never says "The Lord's Day is week-day-1" or Sunday
    5. Date of Authorship - A.D., 120
     
  11. BobRyan

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    Clement is a highly forged and mangled source - even New Advent - RCC source points this out.


    Clement of Rome [SAINT]
    - First Epistle
    - Second Epistle [SPURIOUS]
    - Two Epistles Concerning Virginity [SPURIOUS]
    - Recognitions [SPURIOUS]
    - Clementine Homilies [SPURIOUS]

    from: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/index.html


    1. nothing there about "Confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ".
    2. There is the forged/mangled term "sacrifices" many sacrifices - yet Hebrews 10 knows of only one and it is "once for all" .
    3. Conveniently "found" in 1875 -- just as the Didache
    4. Nothing in the unmangled quote of sectn 44 denies the once-for-all sacrifice of Heb 10.
    5. Clement is not the Bible


    Mangled quote of Clement document

    Pope Clement I

    "Our sin will not be small if we eject from the episcopate those who blamelessly and holily have offered its sacrifices. Blessed are those presbyters who have already finished their course, and who have obtained a fruitful and perfect release" (Letter to the Corinthians 44:4–5

    Falsely claimed to be [A.D. 80]).



    Actual quote

    Our apostles also knew, through our Lord Jesus Christ, that there would be strife on account of the office of the episcopate. For this reason, therefore, inasmuch as they had obtained a perfect fore-knowledge of this, they appointed those [ministers] already mentioned, and afterwards gave instructions, that when these should fall asleep, other approved men should succeed them in their ministry. We are of opinion, therefore, that those appointed by them, or afterwards by other eminent men, with the consent of the whole church, and who have blamelessly served the flock of Christ, in a humble, peaceable, and disinterested spirit, and have for a long time possessed the good opinion of all, cannot be justly dismissed from the ministry. For our sin will not be small, if we eject from the episcopate those who have blamelessly and holily fulfilled its duties. Blessed are those presbyters who, having finished their course before now, have obtained a fruitful and perfect departure [from this world]; for they have no fear lest any one deprive them of the place now appointed them. But we see that you have removed some men of excellent behaviour from the ministry, which they fulfilled blamelessly and with honour.

    From: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1010.htm
     
  12. BobRyan

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    Time travel is an "added claim" for what is being "confected" in that case. - but in 1Cor 11 it is a "memorial" and not "Time travel"
     
    #12 BobRyan, Jul 3, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2016
  13. BobRyan

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    Sadly you left this out of 1Cor 11
    23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

    We participate in the memorial - a "remembrance" of the "once for all" Heb 10 -- sacrifice of Christ

    Not time travel
    not confecting the body,blood, soul and divinity of Christ.
     
  14. Adonia

    Adonia
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    God exists beyond space and time as we know it, it is not time travel but God coming to us in that manner The Eucharist is not only a memorial but the real deal as Jesus said he would be with us always. Really, it's not that difficult a thing to believe.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    Jesus said nothing about "confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ".
    Jesus said "whereEVER two or three are gathered in My name There I AM" - so that means protestants not merely Catholics - and has nothing to do with "Powers" for "confecting the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ".
     
  16. utilyan

    utilyan
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    SDA fundamentals of belief #16

    The Lord's Supper.
    https://www.adventist.org/en/beliefs/church/the-lords-supper/



    Your going to love this one. :p

    Can we conclude Lord's Supper = Communion from the bible?
    Communion is not the Lord's Supper.

    Luke 22

    14And when the hour was come, he sat down, and the twelve apostles with him. 15And he said unto them, With desire I have desired to eat this passover with you before I suffer: 16For I say unto you, I will not any more eat thereof, until it be fulfilled in the kingdom of God. 17And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves: 18For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. 19And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

    Read its SLOWLY^ They ate the Passover, he isn't going to eat food or drink wine till until the kingdom of God fulfilled ect.

    Takes cup blesses it....they drink. says he won't drink till
    Then he takes bread does communion....they eat
    Then he takes cup does communion.....they drink <--happens "after supper".


    Matthew 26
    26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. 27And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; 28For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    During the supper, Jesus does communion.




    1 Corinthians 11
    20When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

    Could it be any clearer? THIS IS NOT TO EAT THE LORD's SUPPER.

    We can imply the western understanding of sarcasm. like "this is not the way to eat the lord's supper" And it would fly if not for the verse after the next that says you can GO HOME AND EAT if you came to eat food.



    1 Corinthians 11 27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

    No we would only be guilty of the Lord's supper. What the Lord eats is not more important then us. Its just food.

    I don't think you would go to jail life sentence for stepping on my biscuits. I'd be pretty angry.



    1 Corinthians 10
    16Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ?


    Well is it? I already said Yes, you still got to think about it.

    You would have to answer NO its not.




    ...... So is that cup of wine we bless and we all drink......is that sharing in the blood of Christ?
    NOT REALLEY:Laugh



    John 6
    55“For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink. 56“He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him.

    NOT REALLEY:p
     
    #16 utilyan, Jul 10, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    You admit that 1Cor 11 deals with the subject -- then choose to flee 1 Cor 11???

    the point remains
     
  18. utilyan

    utilyan
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    Its a command Bob.

    1 Corinthians 10

    14Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?


    Why would the Lord be provoked to Jealousy if the communion of Christ wasn't real?

    Actual idolatry occurs because we have people who offer in sacrifice to devils, We see Jews partakers of actual sacrifice .

    You cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils. Partaker of the Lord's table.

    The point is the connection of SACRIFICE and OFFERING.

    What the Jews put up in a altar was real sacrifice/offering,
    what the idols put up was a sacrifice/offering.

    You would have to argue that the Christian puts up nothing at all. Which is the entire point Paul starts off with :

    The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?


    This cup of blessing, WE bless it, we offer it... Are they offering nothing is it an empty sacrifice?
     
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    you left this out of 1Cor 11
    23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes.

    Remembrance -- memorial

    When we remember our fallen soldiers - we do not "kill them again"

    We participate in the memorial - a "remembrance" of the "once for all" Heb 10 -- sacrifice of Christ

    Not time travel
    not confecting the body,blood, soul and divinity of Christ.

    1 Cor 10 says nothing about confecting the body, soul and divinity of Christ - much less about confecting the blood of Christ.

    1 Cor 10
    14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; you judge what I say. 16 Is not the cup of blessing which we bless a sharing in the blood of Christ? Is not the bread which we break a sharing in the body of Christ? 17 Since there is one bread, we who are many are one body; for we all partake of the one bread. 18 Look at the nation Israel; are not those who eat the sacrifices sharers in the altar? 19 What do I mean then? That a thing sacrificed to idols is anything, or that an idol is anything? 20 No, but I say that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to demons and not to God; and I do not want you to become sharers in demons. 21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons. 22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? We are not stronger than He, are we?

    Paul equates the Christian symbols as symbols the same way pagan symbols are symbols. Pagans do not "eat demons".

    The flag is not "America" but still we are offended when the flag is shown dishonor. America stands just a strong after a muslim burns the flag as before - it is the symbol they dishonor and in so doing dishonor America.

    On the contrary both are offering symbols of something - the pagans and the Christians and that which they offer - the symbol used - shows honor or dishonor to the one symbolized.

    BTW - we all notice your need to avoid 1Cor 11 -- but as much as you think 1 Cor 10 makes your case - the fact that the text says the pagans are doing the very same thing with their own symbols and demons is irrefutable proof that you have this wrong.
     
  20. utilyan

    utilyan
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    I'm not avoiding anything. 11 makes a case too.

    Also we don't repeat the sacrifice.


    1 Corinthians 11

    23For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

    27So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.



    In the early church there was a heresy called "Docetism" that claimed Jesus Christ was God taking the illusion of a human being rather then actually being a human being. Inclusive to this belief is they did not believe in the REAL PRESENCE.

    This is all occurring with a guy who was personally appointed by the apostles. He was taught by John, He took Peter's spot in Antioch and he was killed by lions by the roman persecution.




    Here is Part of letter from:
    The Epistle of Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans

    http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/ignatius-smyrnaeans-longer.html

    Chapter VI-Unbelievers in the Blood of Christ Shall Be Condemned.
    Let no man deceive himself. Both the things which are in heaven, and the glorious angels, and rulers, both visible and invisible, if they believe not in the blood of Christ, shall, in consequence, incur condemnation. "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Let not [high] place puff any one up: for that which is worth all is faith and love, to which nothing is to be preferred. But consider those who are of a different opinion with respect to the grace of Christ which has come unto us, how opposed they are to the will of God. They have no regard for love; no care for the widow, or the orphan, or the oppressed; of the bond, or of the free; of the hungry, or of the thirsty.
    Let no man deceive himself. Unless he believes that Christ Jesus has lived in the flesh, and shall confess His cross and passion, and the blood which He shed for the salvation of the world, he shall not obtain eternal life, whether he be a king, or a priest, or a ruler, or a private person, a master or a servant, a man or a woman. "He that is able to receive it, let him receive it." Let no man's place, or dignity, or riches, puff him up; and let no man's low condition or poverty abase him. For the chief points are faith towards God, hope towards Christ, the enjoyment of those good things for which we look, and love towards God and our neighbour. For, "Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and thy neighbour as thyself." And the Lord says, "This is life eternal, to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom He has sent." And again, "A new commandment give I unto you, that ye love one another. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Do ye, therefore, notice those who preach other doctrines, how they affirm that the Father of Christ cannot be known, and how they exhibit enmity and deceit in their dealings with one another. They have no regard for love; they despise the good things we expect hereafter; they regard present things as if they were durable; they ridicule him that is in affliction; they laugh at him that is in bonds.

    • Chapter VII.-Let Us Stand Aloof from Such Heretics.
    They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death in the midst of their disputes. But it were better for them to treat it with respect, that they also might rise again. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and not to speak of them either in private or in public, but to give heed to the prophets, and above all, to the Gospel, in which the passion [of Christ] has been revealed to us, and the resurrection has been fully proved. But avoid all divisions, as the beginning of evils.
    They are ashamed of the cross; they mock at the passion; they make a jest of the resurrection. They are the offspring of that spirit who is the author of all evil, who led Adam, by means of his wife, to transgress the commandment, who slew Abel by the hands of Cain, who fought against Job, who was the accuser of Joshua the son of Josedech, who sought to "sift the faith" of the apostles, who stirred up the multitude of the Jews against the Lord, who also now "worketh in the children of disobedience; from whom the Lord Jesus Christ will deliver us, who prayed that the faith of the apostles might not fail, not because He was not able of Himself to preserve it, but because He rejoiced in the pre-eminence of the Father. It is fitting, therefore, that ye should keep aloof from such persons, and neither in private nor in public to talk with them; but to give heed to the law, and the prophets, and to those who have preached to you the word of salvation. But flee from all abominable heresies, and those that cause schisms, as the beginning of evils.
     

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