Fundamentalist

//1 Corinthians 15:52 // (translation unknown)
//In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.

[Last Trump] !!!!//

The Last Trump of what?

In my pretribulation rapture2 pre-millinnial Second Coming
viewpoint it is the Last Trump of the Church Age
(AKA = also known as, the Time of the Gentiles,
Age of Grace, Age of the Gentiles, Gentile Age, etc)
which is blown for the Rapture2.

In fact, this scripture defines what I
mean by my terms:

Rapture1 - when 1 Cor 15:52 happens to a living saint

Resurrection1 - when 1 Cor 15:52 happens to a dead saint

Rapture2 - the 'Pretribulation resurrection1
followed immediately by a rapture1' Event

Resurrection1 - the 'Post-tribulation resurrection1
followed immediately by a rapture1' Event

 

But, of course, the Eschatological variances have
little to do with FUNDAMENTLISM -
for the fundamental about Eschatological
is this (bolded below):

The fundamentals of traditional fundamentalism
(this are the ones I believe):

1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent

We obviously both believe in this fundamental.

Where we do not agree is that the
1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
is correct. I believe it and further believe that
it speaks of the TNIV = Today's New International Version (2006)
is scripture that is inspired and infallible

I believe the inspiration and infallibility of scripture in
the HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/.

I believe the inspiration and infallibility of scripture in
the nKJV = New King James Version.

Further, I believe that it is better to use multiple
scriputures in languages that I can read -- it better
helps the Holy Spirit to teach us the depths of God's
truths: His inspiration and infallibility of ALL the
scripture.

Eph 4:4-6 (KJV1611 Edition):
There is one body,
and one spirit, euen as yee are called
in one hope of your calling.
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one Faith, one Baptisme,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is aboue all,
& through all, & in you all.

I am called to help God's other ministers in
this world in the BB = Baptist Board.
I have the ONE hope of my calling as others
have of their calling.
We have one body.
We have one Spirit
We have one Lord
We have one Faith
We have one Baptisme
(not baby sprinkling like the KJVs translators)
We have One God
We have one Father

Strange, did Paul miss out on talking about
one and only one English Translation
HE sure did a good job otherwise of listing all the
'one's.

 

That is correct according to Matt 24 "AFTER the tribulation of those days.. he will gather his elect"

You have summarized the case JUST as Matt 24 states it.

Well done!

Yep! That is the post-trib rapture.

These are excellent summary statements from scripture telling us about the post-trib event Christ speaks of in Matt 24.


KJV discussion I will leave for another thread.

in Christ,

Bob

 

//Ezekiel 38 and 39 must happen before antichrist
comes and the final 7 years. The Ezek.
prophecy is not ready to happen yet.//

Ezekiel 39 happens after the literal Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom that a-mills don't beleive in.
Ezekiel 38 & 39 are two seperate prophecies
of invations of Yisrael at least 1,000 years apart.

Amen, Brother antiaging - Preach it!

//Matt. 24:31 is the rapture and it happens after the great tribulation period spoken of in Matt. 24:21//

Yes, you already said that and we believe that you
believe that. It is wrong, but we allow that liberty
in Christ to you - you can be wrong about that
as often as you wish and under whatever circumstances
you wish. Meanwhile, you fail to support anything counter
to what I'm saying

//Matthew 24:29 (KJV1769 Ediion):
Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

//They never happened yet.//

I agree it has not happened yet.
It will happen at least 2 times 3½-year periods from now
(7 years for the mathematicaly dis-inclined).

Only the pretribulation rapture2 can be signless --
happening in a time unknown to us but in our
future.

//He gave the signs of the end of the age,
they are the same signs of His coming.//

Then you misunderstand the signs of Matthew 24:4-14.
These are signs of the continuing Church Age we are in.
This is a common mistake of those you figure the
rapture2 has to be a post-tribulation ONLY event.
There will be a rapture1 before the Tribulation period
and one after (and as many more as God wants to have,
He doesn't limit himself to one and only one resurrection.
In fact, here is a nice resurrection story in the next post.

--------------------------------
Matthew 24:14 (HCSB = Christian Standard
Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.

Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

AD0061 - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. AD0140 - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

AD0197 - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. AD0205 - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. AD0310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
"The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

AD378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of Christ".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.

This prophecy concerns the Full Church Age!
The word of Jesus has been spreading
to the rest of world and will continue to
do so as long as the Lord tarries.
---------------------------------------------------------------

This can only be a prophecy that is being continously as
long as the Church Age continues.
The Church age lasts from the Day of Pentecost to
the pretribulation rapture2.
Peter calls it 'the last days' iln Acts 2:17.

 

\o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/

\o/ Glory to the Lord \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/

Five Resurrections:

(last revised 30 Nov 2007,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1992)
Found in the Holy Bible Compared and Contrasted

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Rapture1: like a Resurrection1 only of a living person.
Resurrection1: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation (Period): AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
Resurrection: a person who was dead is alive
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

Romans 10:9 (TNIV2006 = Today's New
International Version):

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.

405 years earlier:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him
vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


/b]2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints[/b]
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believeing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 6 Oct 2007;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precusor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just preceede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that at least resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

How can a literalist be a-mill?
A-mill believes in a Spiritual ONLY meaning
for the Millennial Messanic Kingdom.
But that isn't literal.
Literal would be a Physical and a Spiritual
Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

IMHO a-mills can't be fundamentalists.

 

I agree, for the prophecy of Ezekiel 38.
I believe (of my own, not my denomination)
that Ezekiel 39 is a seperate, unique prophecy
about the war & after the physical Millennial Messanic
Kingdom - also described in Revelation 20:7-10.

 

The event about the two witnesses is a
resurrection1 = Jesus giving a new body to a saint who is dead

not a
rapture1 = Jesus giving a new body to a saint who is alive

There are two rapture1s:

1. the PreTribulation Raputre2 (PTR) event:
a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1

2. the Post-Tribulation Resurrection2 event:
a resurrection1 followed by a rapture1

 

1Th 4:16-18 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For the Lord himselfe shall descende from heauen with a shoute, and with the voyce of the Archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then shall we which liue and remaine, be caught vp with them also in the clouds, to meete the Lord in the ayre: and so shall we euer be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore, comfort your selues one another with these wordes.

Where is my comfort that you are
supposed to get me which is COMMANDed
to you in 1 Thess 4:18?

What then is the Bible talking about
when it says these things (items of
interest bolded & in all caps)?

1 Thess 4:17 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Then shall we which liue and remaine,
be CAUGHT VP with them also in the clouds,
to meete the Lord in the ayre:
and so shall we euer be with the Lord.

2 Thess 2:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ, and
by OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
2 That ye be not suddenly mooued from
your minde, nor troubled neither by spirit,
nor by worde, nor by letter, as it were from vs,
as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceiue you by any meanes:
for that day shall not come, except there
come a DEPARTING FIRST, and that
that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne
of perdition,

Titus 2:13 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Looking for that BLESSED HOPE,
and appearing of that glorie of that mightie God,
and of our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

Mat 24:31 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And he shall send his Angels with
a great sound of a trumpet, and
they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT
from the foure windes, and from the one ende of the heauens vnto the other.

1Co 16:22 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
If any man loue not the Lord Iesus Christ,
let him be had in execration MARAN-ATHA.

1 Corinthians 16:22 (TNIV = Today's New
International Version):
If anyone does not love the Lord,
let that person be cursed! COME LORD!

Joh 14:1-3 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Let not your heart be troubled: ye beleeue in God,
beleeue also in me.
2 In my Fathers house are many dwelling places:
if it were not so, I would haue tolde you:
I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go to prepare a place
for you, I wil come againe,
and RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE,
that where I am, there may ye be also.

Ed redefines 'rapture2' with some Scripture
terms:

rapture2 n. -
1. the pretribulation event where Jesus
performs a resurrection1 followed
closely by a rapture1
2a CAUGHT VP;
2b OUR ASSEMBLING VNTO HIM,
-- and DEPARTING;
2c BLESSED HOPE;
2d GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT;
2e MARAN-ATHA;
2f COME LORD!;
2g RECEIVE YOU VNTO MY SELFE;
2h and HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU

Caveat: I reserve the right to add to this definition
as I find other supporting scriptures. These
were just the ones on the top of my mind
this morning.

Sorry, my HOPE is NOT even closely threatened
by sombody grabbing my word 'rapture'.

And I have fulfilled the COMMAND OF JESUS:

1 Peter 3:15-16 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
But sanctifie the Lord God in your hearts:
and be ready alwayes to giue an answere
to euery man that asketh you a reason of the
HOPE THAT IS WITHIN YOU,
with meekenesse and reuerence,

 

I always thought it interesting that the Pilgrims used the Geneva Bible instead of the KJV -- since that was the King's Bible (Anglican).

 

Jillian, Westcott and Hort did not "translate" any Bibles. They worked on a Greek text of the NT using some of the newly discovered, older manuscripts, such as the Codex Sinaiticus, which was a new discovery in their time. Please don't just believe everything you read about Westcott and Hort and the "new versions" but seek out the information for yourself. You'll find that most of what you have read and been told is not what you think it is.

Rippon's suggestion is a very good one.

 

I am a fundamentalist in that I believe in the above fundamentals with an adjustment of the first one to say that the Bible is God's inspired, pure and trustworthy Word of truth to humans.

I am a liberal in that I support modernism, science, evolution, textual criticism and am willing to consider attempts to reconcile them with Christianity.

I am an evangelical in that I oppose the separatist tendency of fundamentalists that the neo-evangelicals were trying to distance themselves from.

So which am I? Does it really matter?

 

Golden Dragon:

Sounds to me like you are a Fundamentalist,
a Liberal, and an Evangelical. In my books that
makes one a moderate. But you get to keep your
own books, which authority I observe you
have in Christ according the Baptist Traditional
Doctrine (from the Bible, of course):
Soul Competency.

 

If you do not believe Genesis 1-8 you can not possibly call yourself a fundamentalist. If rejecting the very BASIS for the fall of mankind and the need of salvation is not "liberal" then WHAT IS??

If you do not have a real fall of mankind from sinless perfection in Eden -- into a sinful depraved state you have no need of salvation -- what would mankind be saved FROM? Or do you argue the following

"God created mankind as a brute unthinking tooth-and-claw-murdering beast doomed to hell -- then later decided to spare him from the created fate He had given mankind to start with".

Can you possibly argue that the "cave dwelling - monkey-brain bashing EDEN" from which mankind fell was BETTER than what we have today? Does ANYONE in that evolution-over-the-Bible camp think that living in caves is BETTER?

In the Gospels AND in the NT and in the HEART of the LAW of God we see the very DETAILS from Gen 1-8 that evolutionism believes to be UNtrue -- to be argued as FACT both in LAW and in Gospel. Only liberalism needs to "have it both ways". Fundamentalism by definition does not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Most evangelicals and fundamentalists accept textual criticism (lower criticism). It is higher criticism that we reject.

 

The Bible is in perfect harmony with actual science.

But evolutionism is completely opposed to both OT and NT basis for the origin of man, the Creator and the fall of man and hence - the basis for the Gospel. In Romans 1 Paul states that the "invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in what has been made" EVEN to pagans -- evolutionism flatly denies it.

There is Nothing "fundamentalist" about evolutionism's claim that you can not believe what you read in Gen 1-8.

in Christ,


Bob

 

I do believe in Genesis 1-8 and in the fall of man and didn't say anything to suggest otherwise.

I probably do not believe your interpretation of those chapters but I believe it is a key part of God's inspired true and trustworthy scriptures that highlights his intimate involvement in creation.

I already said I was liberal. I grew up in a culture where both fundamentalist and liberal (Christian) were bad titles. I now consider both to be good and bad things as well as any other Christian title I have like evangelical.