"Devotion" to Mary...

I agree with your post entirely. I was partly explaining why I questioned the evolution of the church with regard to Greek Philosophy. Also I want to debunk those who hold to Carrol's view related in the Trail of Blood or a similiar vein of thought.

 

And when it comes to doctrines of the SDA - it is sound advice to remember that they include Ellen White as an author of scripture.

"Sola scriptura" to an SDA means the bible filtered through the writings of Ellen White with Ellen White as the controlling authority.

 

Amen! Preach it!

in Christ,

Bob

 

The Apostles guided the church in its infancy - through the first century without any false doctrine about Mary "sinless like Christ" or Mary "Co-redemptrix" or Mary "Queen of Heaven" and not one single "Prayer to Mary" recorded in all of scripture.

But as you point out - Greek (and Roman) paganism crept into the church over the next few centuries -- most significantly at the time of the 4th century when persecution ceased and the pagan Roman empire decided to embrace the Christian faith by order of Emperor Constantine. Even Catholic historians admit that the pagan gods were adopted in - given names of saints and the same candles and practice of praying to the dead was introduced.

Thus a flood gate of error - which the Reformation finally began to address and turn the church back to the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Yep, the Apostles were guided by the Holy Spirit, just as Christ promised...This is called Holy Tradition!

Keep in mind, these are dogma's of the Roman Catholic Church (post 1054)...not the Orthodox Church.

It could be b/c Mary was still alive when the pages of the NT were being written...Furthermore, the NT isn't an end all guide on how the Church should function and be structured...The Church was in existence and operating well before the NT became official...hence your comment..." The Apostles guided the church in its infancy"

In XC
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If we accept the conservative view that the NT books were completed by 90 AD, you would have to concede that the theology was rich and well-thought out very early in the Church, and that despite this extant rich theology, letters were written to correct errors that crept in early.

My question for you is this -- what would the Apostles be teaching that wasn't already captured in the NT texts?

 

Perhaps more significantly, what were the Apostles and other followers of Jesus doing?

 

OK, a question: who do people think the woman is in Rev 12?

 

She is Israel. It cannot be the Church because the Church did not give birth to the Christ.

 

On what Scriptural basis do you say Israel and not Mary?

 

The Church started in Acts on the Day of Pentecost, where we find Mary praying with the other Apostles, and the other 120 disciples. She was their equal. She was one person of 120. She was not elevated above any other person. In fact she is not mentioned again after that. She was alive during the church age but not prominent.

Christ came from the Jewish nation. Mary was simply a human vessel used of God to bear him into the world. God could have used someone else, but he chose Mary. He had to choose someone. Mary was a sinner just like us all.

 

Not sure that answers the question I posed. On as plain a reading as one can have with Revelation, the male child (v5) is Christ. Which woman gave birth to Christ? Mary. I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that Israel or the Church gave birth to Christ (in the latter case, surely it's the other way round).

 

and i would like to add Matt that per Revelation 12:6...the "woman" fled into the wilderness...anyone, with even an elementary knowledge of the Gospels would know that Mary, along with Joesph fled Israel sometime after the birth of Christ.

...but OH NO, the "child" is literal for Christ and the "woman" has to be figurative for Israel....

In XC
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Look at the context.

Revelation 12:5-6 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

The woman (Israel--often referred to in the feminine gender in the OT) brought forth a man child.
Jesus himself told the Samaritan woman: "Salvation is of the Jews."

The woman fled into the wilderness. (Mary never did this.)
There she was protected for 1,260 days or 42 months or 3 1/2 years.
That speaks of the Great Tribulation or Jacob's Trouble, where at the end Jesus Christ will come again and all Israel shall be saved. Before the Tribulation, the rapture will occur and Mary (her body) shall be raptured. She is dead. She is not alive now. She will not be going through this time period mentioned in verse 6.

 

When did Mary flee into the wildnerness for 3 1/2 years?
The word "wilderness" means uninhabited. When did Mary flee to an uninhabited place?

 

Hi Amy...why did the woman in Revelation 12 flee? Why did Mary and Joseph flee?

The "dragon" in Rev 12 was ready to devour the child as soon as it was born, thus the "woman" fled into the wilderness...likewise King Herod in St. Matthew's Gospel account sent forth to slew all the children 2 years and younger, thus Mary fled with the child (Jesus)...into a Egypt.

The parallel between the two accounts are the same, regardless of your definition of "wilderness", which is irrelevant...both women fled with their child to keep harm from their child...

In XC
_

 

You have answered that question for yourself--from the Bible.

The Biblical account tells of Mary and Joseph fleeing into Egypt. How long did they stay there? Please explain.

Given the context, there are two many discrepancies that you have not accounted for, especially the time period--3 1/2 years. Where did Mary flee into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years?

Read everything between, and then read the conclusion:

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Satan was not so much angry with Mary, as he is with remnant of the seed that came forth later--Christianity. The woman is Israel. Mary came through the line of David, an Israelite. Christ is a Jew that will someday rule from the throne of David. Satan will make war with remnant that came after Mary--Christianity, as has already been seen.