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Whosoever Will

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Jan 28, 2010.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    It just does not predate Scripture!
     
    #201 OldRegular, Feb 5, 2010
  2. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    Agreed, so therefore your argument about Darby and Scofield fall by the way side for the same reason.

    You don't have to be frightened by dispensationalism for it is a term (dispensation) and doctrine brought to us from the Lord Jesus Christ through Paul.

    Granted, some as you have noted, carry it to the extreme; but that happens with all theologies.

    All dispensationalism is, is the teaching that at various different times God "dispensed" His Grace on man in different ways.
     
    #202 olegig, Feb 5, 2010
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    And any doctrine that teaches there are two Gospel's is heretical based on the words of the Apostle Paul:

    Romans 1:16, 17
    16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Galatians 1:6-9
    6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    And the introduction to the Gospel of Mark:

    The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

    :wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:
     
    #203 OldRegular, Feb 5, 2010
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Just to reassure you: I am a dispensationalist. There is only one gospel. There is only one way to be saved. It was the same way that Abraham was saved (Romans 4:1-4), and that is by faith alone.

    Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

    The gospel: the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, has never changed. If one does not believe on the sacrificial work of Jesus Christ he cannot be saved.
     
    #204 DHK, Feb 5, 2010
  5. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I realize that you are dispensational and also realize that most dispensationalists [at least those I know] do not believe in two Gospels. However, ituttut could only talk about the revelation given to Paul and definitely believed in two Gospels, one that Peter and Jesus Christ preached and one that Paul preached. olegig seems to have the same beliefs.

    I disagree strongly with dispensational doctrine but must admit that one of my favorite authors is dispensational, John MacArthur. Also I must admit that one of the best preachers [my pastor for a time] I have ever heard was dispensational [and self trained]. A great expositor [when he did not get tied up in dispensational doctrine] he has gone home to be with the LORD.
     
    #205 OldRegular, Feb 5, 2010
  6. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    OldRegular,

    I hate to break the news to you; but there are even more gospels mentioned in the Bible than two.

    Here is another:

    Revelation 14:5-7 (King James Version)
    5And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
    6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Please note in vs. 7 the scripture tells us what this particular gospel message was.
    Doesn't sound a whole like 1Cor 15:1ff to me,,,,does it to you? (this is a question I would sure like an answer to, not like all the others you have avoided.)

    You see gospel simple means "good news" and all through out the scriptures there was revelation of even more and better "good news."

    Now, OldRegular, I have shown you 3 different gospels and I have also shown you the content of those messages so you and everyone else can easily see their differences.

    In the normal sense of discussion and debate it would be time for you to attempt to prove your point with something more than a few scriptures posted in bold red.

    Come-on man, search the scriptures,,,,,,show us what the 12 told others, for surely they would repeat what they were told to say.
    Or show the results of some folks hearing the gospel messages for surely they would have reaction to them.
    Let me give you a starting place...Mk 8:29; Jn 11:24 and here is a good one. Acts 9:20
     
    #206 olegig, Feb 5, 2010
  7. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    I hate to break it to you but Paul preached about the coming judgement at Mars' Hill. So yes, it was the same gospel. Or how about when Paul told the Romans that God would judge the earth by Jesus Christ according to the gospel? The everlasting gospel isn't different from the gospel Paul preached, but don't let facts get in the way.
     
    #207 RAdam, Feb 5, 2010
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are correct! There is only one Gospel. Paul preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ just as all the Apostles did. I agree with the Apostle Paul's remarks to the Galatians condemning those who teach another Gospel.

    The Apostle Paul was not ashamed of the Gospel of Jesus Christ:

    Romans 1:16, 17
    16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Why is it that some others apparently are ashamed of the Gospel Jesus Christ preached since they come up with a multitude of so-called Gospel's?
     
    #208 OldRegular, Feb 5, 2010
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  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    This thread has deviated into the discussion of the hyper dispensationalist heretical insistence of multiple Gospel's. I would encourage everyone to get back to the discussion of the OP.

    When confronted with the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace in Salvation those who lold the doctrines of Pelagianism, semi-Pelagianism, Arminianism, or Freewillism like to fall back to Scripture such as the following:

    John 3:16. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    Revelation 22:17. And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    I would appreciate those who hold the above Freewill doctrines showing how the Doctrine of Sovereign Grace in Salvation is contrary to the above passage or contradicts any other passage they use to defend their beliefs!
     
    #209 OldRegular, Feb 5, 2010
  10. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Sovreign grace

    I can only go by sovereign grace through faith. To just believe in the faith that is given to us through the words of Jesus. I cannot go against grace through faith. You cannot have grace until you have faith and you cannot have this faith until you believe.

    In this faith we believe not our faith or belief or anything we did saved us . It was what Jesus did on the cross is what did it.

    The cost of my sin is death not belief or faith, I can't save myself. I have to trust in Jesus for my salvation.
     
    #210 psalms109:31, Feb 6, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2010
  11. RAdam

    RAdam New Member

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    To believe means to have faith in, so one must have faith before he believes.
     
    #211 RAdam, Feb 6, 2010
  12. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Faith, belief

    My faith noun, my belief verb. Same meaning.

    Faith that comes from the words of Jesus, and my belief, two different things.

    Romans 10:17
    Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
     
    #212 psalms109:31, Feb 6, 2010
  13. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Faith

    You cannot have faith from Jesus until you get them and you can't have that faith until you believe.
     
    #213 psalms109:31, Feb 6, 2010
  14. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    RAdam,

    The everlasting gospel isn't different from the gospel Paul preached, but don't let facts get in the way.

    I agree with you about the facts getting in the way.
    All you have to do to prove your point is to show the things mentioned in 1Cor 15:1-4, (death, burial, and resurrection) are also mentioned in Rev 14:7.

    OldRegular,

    There is only one Gospel. Paul preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ just as all the Apostles did.

    And I say to you that all you have to do to prove your point is to show in any of the 4 gospels accounts where any follower of Jesus preached or taught the message of the death, burial, and resurrection and the power thereof.

    You say this discussion has nothing to do with the OP, well it has everything to do with the OP.
    If you cannot even search the scriptures to prove and support blanket statements concerning scriptural matters, how do you expect us to have any confidence in your understanding of a man based theology such as Calvinism?
     
    #214 olegig, Feb 6, 2010
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Any person who teaches there is more than one Gospel is guilty of heresy based on the words of the Apostle Paul:

    Romans 1:16, 17
    16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    17. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

    Note that the Apostle Paul does not say that the gospel is the fact of the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Salvation is not simply assent to these truths. Salvation is a supernatural act of GOD. The Apostle Paul states that the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Jesus Christ, the Incarnate GOD, clearly taught that Salvation is a supernatural act for it was HE who taught:


    John 3:3-8
    3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    4. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
    5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
    7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
    8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

    Furthermore, and I repeat myself, the Apostle Paul states that there is only one Gospel and anyone who says differently is accursed.

    Galatians 1:6-9
    6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
    7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
    8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
    9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    Now anyone who believes Scripture must believe that the Apostle Paul preached the same Gospel that was given and preached by Jesus Christ. Mark in the introduction to the account of the life and death of Jesus Christ attributed to him starts as follows:

    Mark 1:1. The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

    Lest anyone still be ignorant of what Scripture teaches about the Gospel consider the words of our Savior in the account by Mark.

    Mark 1:14, 15
    14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
    15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

    Are we to assume that Jesus Christ, the Incarnate GOD, did not understand what constituted HIS Gospel. Well if one contends there is more than one Gospel that is exactly what they are contending. Now in case some are confused about the declaration by the Incarnate GOD that HIS Kingdom is at hand perhaps they will believe their Apostle whom they seem to elevate above the Incarnate GOD. Scripture states of this person after his arrival in Rome and well after his conversion. The Apostle had spoken to the Jews as was his custom each place he preached. His preaching had been rejected and we are then told.

    Acts 28:30, 31:
    30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
    31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

    Poor Paul! after preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the Incarnate GOD, for many years; after he declared that those who preached a different Gospel are accursed; now he is preaching what???? the Gospel of the Kingdom of GOD that Jesus Christ the Incarnate GOD had preached during HIS ministry, the Gospel that Mark called the Gospel of Jesus Christ, the same Gospel that he, Paul, had always preached.

    Now those who contend that there are 2, 3, 4, or 5 gospels are free to continue to believe this heresy and may GOD have mercy on them.
     
    #215 OldRegular, Feb 6, 2010
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  16. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Now OR, lest you get yourself into a position of throwing around false allegations, I would challenge you to do a survey of the dispensationalists on this board and see: How many of the dispensationalists here actually believe what you accuse them of. Perhaps one or two?

    You swipe with a broad brush all of us because just a few believe in what you have stated. Is that fair?

    Do you know that the Roman Catholics believe in Covenant Theology?
    By your own logic, therefore shall I brand you a Roman Catholic?
    This is your logic. Are you a Roman Catholic, OR?
     
    #216 DHK, Feb 6, 2010
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    DHK

    I had quit responding to your posts because you routinely accused me of saying things I did not say, just as you have in the above remarks. You also ask stupid questions such as: “Are you a Roman Catholic, OR?” essentially implying I am a liar since only Baptists are supposed to post on this particular Forum. I also believe that on occassion you questioned, cleverly of course, my salvation.

    I will say this. I posted for some time on a Forum which had a high percentage of Roman Catholics on it. I believe a number were priests since they were knowledgeable of Scripture. Though I debated vigerously with them I was treated with more brotherly kindness than I have received from most dispensationalists on this Baptist Forum; but that is okay with me since I expect nothing else. Also I doubt that Roman Catholics believe in Covenant Theology since it was developed by the Reformers.

    Hopefully dispensationalists will learn that the “Dispensational Truth” of Scofield is a complete misnomer, just as ex-dispensationalist Philip Mauro so vigorously noted in an earlier post [#192].

    The post to which you responded [#215] did not mention dispensationalists or dispensationalism so you are being overly sensitive when you say I "swipe with a broad brush". olegig obviously believes in more than one Gospel contrary to Scripture, just as ituttut did. I wasted valuable time debating with ituttut until he left the Forum. I do not intend to waste any more time with a reincarnation of ituttut! I find it strange that olegig honed in on one of my threads with his heretical beliefs as soon as he started posting as a junior member.

    I am repeating my last post in which I responded to you [#205] and which you apparently did not take time to read.

    I realize that you are dispensational and also realize that most dispensationalists [at least those I know] do not believe in two Gospels. However, ituttut could only talk about the revelation given to Paul and definitely believed in two Gospels, one that Peter and Jesus Christ preached and one that Paul preached. olegig seems to have the same beliefs.

    I disagree strongly with dispensational doctrine but must admit that one of my favorite authors is dispensational, John MacArthur. Also I must admit that one of the best preachers [my pastor for a time] I have ever heard was dispensational [and self trained]. A great expositor [when he did not get tied up in dispensational doctrine] he has gone home to be with the LORD.

    But :wavey::wavey::wavey::wavey:
     
    #217 OldRegular, Feb 6, 2010
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Yes I did miss this post. And I, like you, disagreed with much of ituttut's posts. Rest assured, I was not calling you a Catholic, but only making a point. I guess it is a point I never had to make in the first place.
     
    #218 DHK, Feb 6, 2010
  19. olegig

    olegig New Member

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    OldRegular,

    First let me ask, do you have trouble reading, are your eyes getting a little "long in the tooth"??
    The reason I ask is that sometimes you seem to use bold type, is that because you cannot see the print used by regular folks?
    If so, and upon your request, I will gladly use a bolder type if you find it an aid.

    Sometimes folks use bold type to show that they would be yelling if the discussion was face to face.
    OldRegular, surely you never yell, I mean, heck, if you are truely one of God's chosen, do you really think He would want you yelling at someone who might have also been chosen by decree?

    To the response...
    To tell you the truth I am a bit disappointed. I was hoping for some scriptural proof, not just more of the same.

    One can quote scripture all day long and really never know what the writer meant until one digs deeper into the message.
    Its like when Mark or Paul use the term "gospel" one must seek more to really know what they meant.
    Or like when I asked you what you meant by "grace" because many times folks use these terms and later we find they are really code for something else.

    An illustration would be Bill Clinton. He said we should reduce the deficit and I said ok until I realized he meant by raising taxes and I was thinking reducing spending.

    I suggest you review those passages I told you about to find what the gospel message of Jesus' earthly ministry really instilled in folks.

    Here's a place to start:

    Mark 8:29 (King James Version)
    29And he saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Peter answereth and saith unto him, Thou art the Christ.

    And Peter answered thou are the Christ.....Nothing about the death, burial, and resurrection. Nothing about the power of the resurrection.
    Compare this with Rom 10:9 and 1Cor 15:1......

    OldRegular, there is something I am interested in.
    Twice already I given my testimony on this board, would you give yours?
    and....
    When faced with an unbeliever who is seeking knowledge of salvation what do you tell them?

    In other words, how would you answer this question:

    What must I do to be saved?
     
    #219 olegig, Feb 6, 2010
  20. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Faith:
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    Mind if I ask you.
    When you speak of "saved", do you mind if I ask you, "saved from what" ?
     
    #220 pinoybaptist, Feb 6, 2010
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