Regeneration Before Faith

Just because two things are concurrent with each other does not mean there is no logical order or cause and effect relationship between them. Like the bullet and the hole thing.

 

I see what you are saying.

I think Lazarus is a picture of this.

When Jesus called him, did he come to life first and then hear Him or did he hear Him and then come to life or did they happen simultaneously or does it really matter anyway?

I don't think Mary and Martha cared. They had Lazarus back from the dead.

Thanks be to our God that it has happened to us.

HankD

 

That was also my point in different words.

For an aircraft to achieve flight there must be lift under the wings (rotation) and another force propelling the plane with sufficient velocity (propulsion) to overcome the Law of Gravity.

Rotation and propulsion working concurrently to a common goal - flight.


HankD

 

Sounds like legalism to me. You see I was saved by Grace through faith by a God who is higher than the Law. The only obedience that can save a man is the faith given to the man through the Holy Spirit by the hearing of God's word. This convinces the man of Christ before regeneration or Salvation which is why, this being convinced, convicts the man of his sin. The conviction and the convincing by the Holy Spirit takes the man to his knees in submission to Christ. There simply can be no salvation with out surrender. Other wise the man continues in his rebellion.

Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Don't you get it? We are no longer under the Law. Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness sake. Once we surrender, Christ is our righteousness. We wear the righteousness of Christ when we put on the new man

To be justified is to be blameless. Innocent of wrong doing. The very act of being declared innocent or justified is Salvation. We are sinners by nature and still are even after Salvation. Yet because we wear the righteousness of Christ we are judged righteous because His Son's righteousness is absolutely pure. God doesn't see any stains because of it.

Nonsense. Your saying God is so desperate for men to Love Him that He has to force them to.

You really need to accept the meaning of regeneration instead of creating your own.

I do not belong to either category. The tulip is a nonbiblical concept, always has been. Even though this tulip varies in both doctrines.
I do not accept men having an inability.
Election is conditional upon believing in Christ.
The atonement is not limited.
Grace is resistible.
We do not persevere to stay saved we are kept by the power of God.
MB

 

My mixed up friend,

Justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is the very opposite of justification by works of the law. I am not teaching justification by works of the law but justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. So unconfuse yourself in this matter.

Second, justification by faith before God (Rom. 4:1) deals with your legal position or standing before God whereby you are no longer condemned by the law to death but justified by the law because of the righteousness of Christ imputed to your account. Hence, you have received "justification of life" by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.

Here is the analogy and all analogies are never perfect. By conception you obtained natural physical life and were born into this world. After being born the law of the Land provided a birth certificat authenticating your birth and provided you the position/standing of life in the eyes of the law. The birth certificate granted you LEGAL standing or position of LIFE in the eyes of the law but conception is where you obtain physical life.

The same is true in the spiritual world. Regeneration/quickening is where you obtain spiritual life. Justification is like the birth certificate where you are granted the legal position or status of life in the eyes of the Law of God due solely to the righteous life of Jesus Christ being imputed or charged to your account by faith as we are justified by faith.

 

Dr Walter;
You refer to me as "My mixed up friend" Yet it isn't me who marries the ideas of men with scripture and calls it truth. You believe in something that is only supported by men. not God.

There is no Grace unless it comes through faith so faith is not alone and neither is grace. Faith by the way Has to be in place before grace can come through it. To say "grace alone" goes against scripture.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Since we acquire grace through faith, it would be impossible to have it with out faith. Therefore grace is not alone. Faith comes by hearing the word of God. It doesn't come by regeneration. Faith is not alone it always comes by hearing.

Those who like to quote this saying "by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone." Makes no sense if we are saved by all three we are not saved by any single one. It's true we are saved by Grace but we are also saved by hope and neither of those are alone. Christ saves us using grace, faith and ,hope. And none of it comes with out surrender to His righteousness. Regeneration is being born again. That my friend is being saved.
MB

 

My real mixed up friend,

Nowhere in the Scriptures, including Ephesians 2:8, does it ever say that faith produces grace. NOWHERE! Ephesians 2:8 does not say we are "saved by faith." It says we are "saved BY GRACE." That salvation by grace is described in the perfect tense or past complete action that stands completed up to the point of speaking.

The same perfect tense is used by Paul to describe our standing in grace in Romans 5:2 that is a completed action PRIOR TO access by faith.

Absolute Biblical proof that your position reverses the true order given in the scriptures is the fact that election is said to be "of grace" not "of faith" - Rom. 11:5 and this election "of grace" took place BEFORE the world began (Eph. 1:4) and it is an election "TO" salvation "through...belief of the truth" demonstrating that God's purpose of grace precedes faith and indeed is the cause that produces "faith" or "belief of the truth (2 Thes. 2:13).

Ephesians 2:8 and the perfect tense refers back to Ephesians 1:4 the completed action of grace in election before the foundation of the world which is an election UNTO salvation through "sanctification of the Spirit AND belief of the truth."


According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.


For your position to be the Biblical position we would read "election of faith" in Romans 11:6 instead of "election of grace" and that we are "saved by faith" in Ephesians 2:8 instead of "saved by grace."

"through faith" refers to the time and place of experience of salvation not the cause of salvation. "Saved by grace" defines the cause.

In Romans 4:16 justifying faith is said to be "of grace" demonstrating that the source or cause of faith is grace not vice versa.

You must rearrange the language (reverse it) to teach your theory.

 

The Calvinists at the Synod of Dort did not invent T.U.L.I.P., that came a bit afterwards in order to abbreviate the concepts. The Remonstrants are the ones who wanted debates on their five pet issues. The Calvinists didn't press those particular five planks.But when it came time to adress the matter they dealt with it biblically.

With those four short sentences you have confirmed that you are indeed an Arminian.

You have some misunderstanding about what Calvinists believe. Calvinists do indeed believe that true Christians are kept or preserved by the power of God.
This last point was kind of mixed with the Remonstants -- they didn't really come down on it one way or the other.
But many Arminians think that they aren't Arminians because they believe in eternal security -- however, they are still in the Remonstrant camp.

 

I have met many who would not agree with you and wonder if they are going to be saved and really do not know. It is obvious they do not believe 1 Jn 5:11-13.

 

When you say you "have met many" -- do you mean Christians in general or Calvinists in particular?

 

Well, what did Jesus say?

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Did Jesus say the living will hear his voice and those that hear will live? No. It would not even make sense. No, Jesus said the dead (unregenerate) would hear his voice, and those that hear (believe) would live. That makes perfect sense.

This was speaking of the spiritually dead, but a few verses later Jesus speaks of the physically dead.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I believe they hear when dead. Notice that the unregenerate, those spiritually dead will hear his voice and rise from the grave.

I think the problem is a misunderstanding of what death is. Death simply means separation. Those who are physically dead are those whose spirit has left their body. Those who are spiritually dead are those separated from God as the rich man who died and went to hell.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We know in the story of the rich man who died and went to hell and Lazarus who died and went to Abraham's bosom that both were physically dead and were buried. But both could hear, see, feel, speak and all other functions. So the spirit does not cease to function at death as the body does.

When Jesus raised the young girl who had died, it said her spirit returned.

Luke 8:54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

I do not know for certain, but I think this young girl was saved when she physically died, and that her spirit went to wait in Abraham's bosom just as Lazarus did. But she could hear there, and when Jesus called she returned to her body. The spirit carries the life force and so her physical body came alive.

But when he called her she was dead, her spirit was seperated from her body, as James 2:26 says. So, she heard him when she was dead, her spirit returned afterward to her body and then she was made alive.

 

My friend,

Do me a favor and go the nearest grave yard and find a headstone with the name and you say "......come forth" and see what happens?

If Jesus had merely said "come forth" all the dead in all the tombs would have come forth because there is POWER in His voice as it is an EFFECTUAL call.

The gospel when YOU or some man preaches it does not produce that effect on the listeners. When it does, it is because it "came not in word only but IN POWER and in assurance and in THE HOLY GHOST."

If you believe that YOUR preaching the gospel has the power to call the dead to life then go do what Jesus did in the grave yard and come back with a report.

 

Friend, I do not have the ability to speak to the dead because they are separated from us, but Jesus does.

But the witch of Endor could raise the dead (but only the spirit), she raised Samuel, and when Samuel arose he held a conversation with king Saul.

1 Sam 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

This is where Calvinism makes a serious mistake, they believe that a spiritually dead person is like a lifeless corpse that cannot function. But the scriptures show that the spirit of both the regenerate (Samuel) and the unregenerate (the rich man who went to hell) can function. And notice when Samuel was brought up that king Saul could hold a conversation with him. The problem is not a lack of ability, it is that we are separated from the dead.

 

Thank you for making my point. When the gospel comes in "word ONLY" it comes without power. Only Christ though the Holy Spirit can call forth the spiritual dead. Jesus made this point when he said 'NO MAN CAN COME TO ME" proving that unregenerate man has no spiritual capacity to come to Christ.

Nobody is teaching that the immaterial part of man ceases to exist or to function either at spiritural or physical death. What we are denying is that the spiritual dead will not and thus cannot respond to God and the things of God. They are plentifully active in spiritual disobedience (Eph. 2:2-3).

Bottom line is that Christ says "NO MAN COME TO ME" and you claim all spiritually dead men have capability to come to Christ. You say they did not lose that capability in the fall and Christ says they did.

Now, don't write back that all men can come to Christ "IF" God empowers them as that is your confession they lost that ability in the Fall and cannot respond apart from OUTSIDE power to their fallen will.

 

And you call me mixed up. The verse explicitly states we are saved by grace through faith. To say Grace is alone is denying what scripture actually says. Which is why you make me laugh by referring to me as mixed up. You're not only mixed up your completely wrong.

You either do not comprehend what you read very well or, you are in absolute denial of the truth. Maybe both. Both verses are in agreement that grace comes through faith

Romans 11:5 is about a remnant of Jewish believers. There simply are no Gentiles who are part of a remnant. Like I said completely wrong

Do you enjoy leaving Christ out of the election process. We are only elected in Christ.

Now you have misrepresented my beliefs and they are that, we are saved by Grace through faith. Your the one sweeping faith under the carpet here.

Who says? You? There isn't any reason to believe in what you claim because what you have said here is in direct contradiction to scripture

You must rearrange the language (reverse it) to teach your theory.[/QUOTE]
You're the one doing the twisting of scripture here my very wrong friend.
MB

 

When Jesus said no man can come to him unless the Father draw him, he was speaking of the scriptures. Unless God the Father had provided his written word, not one man on earth would know of the true God and his Son Jesus Christ.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Calvinists love to quote verse 44, but rarely mention verse 45 which is a continuation of verse 44 and explains how God draws a man. It is those men who hear God's word, who believe it and are taught by it that come to Christ. Without God's word it would be impossible for any man to come to Christ. This is what Paul said in Romans 10:13.

Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

If the gospel is ineffective, it is because of the hearer's unbelief, not that God is sending out a different message.

Heb 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

Does Hebrews 4:2 say that different gospels are sent out to men? Does it say one group of men receives an effectual gospel, while another group receives an ineffectual gospel? No, it says the very same gospel is preached to all, but only profits those that believe it. The fault is with the hearer, not the gospel message.

The scriptures say the word of God is only effectual to those who believe it.

1 Thess 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

I do not think you have thought carefully about what you believe and teach. You teach that God speaks insincere, very misleading, and powerless words to some men. The scriptures say otherwise.

The scriptures say the word of God is quick and powerful without exception.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

And notice in verse 13 that the power of God's word reaches to all creatures, this would include the unelect.

You teach that God makes insincere, very misleading, and powerless invitations to men.

 

I don't think anyone on the forum who knows language or theology buys your confusion.

Grace is presented in Ephesians 2:5,8 as the foundational cause or ground for salvation as the only other foundational cause or ground is "works." The foundation or cause always precedes consequences or means. "Through faith" defines how it is applied in time and space to your experience. You receive it "through faith" but you are saved "by grace" and grace alone as faith is "of grace" Rom. 4:16).

Ephesians 1:4 is certainly "in him" but it is "in him" before you existed and therefore before your faith existed. However, the cause that you are "in him" before the foundation of the world is "by grace" not works. Election is "of grace" (Rom. 9:11; 11:5-6) and this is applied to the gentiles equally as to the Jewish nation (Rom. 9:24).

The only contrast to "grace" in the Scriptures is "works" (Rom. 11:6; Eph. 2:9) and his assertion "by grace" in Ephesians 2:8 is in contrast to "works" in 2:9. Election before the foundation of the world for both Jews and Gentiles is "by grace" before it was ever applied "through faith" in your experience.

You need to find someone you trust as a grammarian and theologion to help explain this to you.

I am not denying that salvation is applied "through faith" but I am denying that faith precedes God's purpose of grace because the Scriptures clearly teach that his purpose of grace was established before the world began but application "through faith" occurs in time and space at a certain point in your experience.

Yes, you experience grace "through faith" in time and space but the reason you experience in time and space is becuase God's grace made that possible before you ever existed and therefore "faith" is "of grace" or the product of grace not vice versa (Rom. 4:4; 16; 9:11,24; 11:5-6).

You're the one doing the twisting of scripture here my very wrong friend.
MB[/QUOTE]

 

What you fail to understand is that although God's word always carries power, it is only effectual to those that believe.

Mark 6:5 And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

I know this will be astounding to you, but the scripture here show Jesus could do no mighty works because of these people's unbelief. This is shown again in Matthew 13.

Matt 13:58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

Jesus said all things are possible to those who believe, which shows the determinate factor in receiving God's power is faith.

Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.

God will not show his grace to those who do not believe him.

Isa 59:1 Behold, the LORD'S hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

In 2 Kings 7 it tells of when the Syrians laid seige to Samaria. The people were starving to death. But Elisha gave a prophesy that on the next morning the people would have more than enough to eat. One man did not believe, and so he did not receive this blessing though all the other people did.

2 Kings 7:1 Then Elisha said, Hear ye the word of the LORD; Thus saith the LORD, To morrow about this time shall a measure of fine flour be sold for a shekel, and two measures of barley for a shekel, in the gate of Samaria.
2 Then a lord on whose hand the king leaned answered the man of God, and said, Behold, if the LORD would make windows in heaven, might this thing be? And he said, Behold, thou shalt see it with thine eyes, but shalt not eat thereof.

The next day this man was trampled to death.

2 Kings 7:16 And the people went out, and spoiled the tents of the Syrians. So a measure of fine flour was sold for a shekel, and two measures of barley for a shekel, according to the word of the LORD.
17 And the king appointed the lord on whose hand he leaned to have the charge of the gate: and the people trode upon him in the gate, and he died, as the man of God had said, who spake when the king came down to him.
18 And it came to pass as the man of God had spoken to the king, saying, Two measures of barley for a shekel, and a measure of fine flour for a shekel, shall be to morrow about this time in the gate of Samaria:
19 And that lord answered the man of God, and said, Now, behold, if the LORD should make windows in heaven, might such a thing be? And he said, Behold, thou shalt see it with thine eyes, but shalt not eat thereof.
20 And so it fell out unto him: for the people trode upon him in the gate, and he died.

You just don't get it. God always has power, and God always wants to pour out his grace upon men. But we must believe. Any man who does not believe God makes him a liar, and God will not bless this man.

1 John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

This is why it is impossible to please God without faith. A man must have faith in God before God will give him grace.

 

Your reasoning is circle reasoning. You say the word "carries power" but it is activated only by belief and yet Christ says no such ability to believe is found in the fallen man. If ability (power of will to believe) were there he would not say "NO MAN CAN COME TO ME. Hence, the ability to come, believe is not there and yet the word "carries power" only to those who not only have that ability to exercise it but do exercise it. Again, you say the spiritual dead man has that ability and can exercise it in direct contradiction to Christ's words to the contrary.

Second, you misunderstand the divine purpose of miracles and wonders whether they are performed by Jesus or Elijah. The divine purpose of miracles signs and wonders is to confirm what is spoken is the Word of God and the spokes person is speaking in behalf of God. When a people reject the word spoken then that invalidates the reason for performing miracles signs and wonders.

It is not that he couldn't do great miracles as he possessed the power, but rather he could not do miracles according to the purpose miracles were designed to accomplish - to confirm the word to the hearers as truth. They refused to accept His word.

 

I agree with you 100% that we are saved by grace and not of works. Where I disagree with you is that I believe we receive grace "through faith". As Charles Spurgeon said, grace is like the fountains of water, but faith is the aqueduct that allows that grace to flow to us.

Now, I agree wholeheartedly with Spurgeon here. We must have faith to receive God's grace, but we are never to think of our faith as some merit of our own, because without God's revelation of Jesus Christ through his Word, we could not place our faith in him.

But this grace or revelation of Jesus Christ is made available to all men.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

All men have some knowledge and revelation of God as shown in Romans chapter 1. And all men, regenerate or unregenerate have God's Holy Word available to them.

But this grace of God must be received by faith. It does no good to have a pool of fresh water for the city if there be no aqueduct to bring this water into the city as Spurgeon said. Faith is that conduit that allows God's grace to flow to us.