Commandment keeping

Im not saying that is not so....but the word saved or salvation is no where to be found anywhere near John 6 {28-29}

 

What work are you doing in believing? Christ doesn't indicate any; that is why it is phrased the way it is. If you want further proof you can argue with the Scripture not with me:

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Salvation comes to the one who does no work but simply believes on Christ. Your argument is with Scripture.

Faith always has an object. The object of my faith is Christ. If the object of your faith is Satan you are in a sorry state. What is the object of your faith?

 

Not only satanist but the devils also

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

 

Here is the preceding verse--it gives the context.

John 6:27 Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

The context is everlasting life. One does not labour for it; they believe.

 

It must be nice to be perfect and sinless from birth on and to have NEVER (not even one) in your life told one single lie no matter how "small", NEVER once said an angry word to anyone, NEVER once had lustful thoughts or desires, NEVER once coveted, NEVER once failed to faithfully follow and serve the Lord in ALL things and to put His will first before ALL things. Personally, I've never been capable of that. I thank God that He chose to forgive us not by our merits but by His grace and mercy.

 

Yes Jon, and there are "many" that make this claim.

1 John 3:4
Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

We see what the scripture says about sin. The many claim we are no longer under the law, it has been abolished and therefore they cannot sin because sin is the transgression of the law.

But.....

1 John 1:8-10
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

Hey DHK
I have found scripture that shows you need not be saved to inherit eternal, or everlasting life. Should you be saved to the kingdom you do attain eternal life but you can also attain eternal life at the great white thrown. There it will be by your works.

 

Quite true. But I think that term will be more appropriately called "eternal death."

 

No.

THE 1st RESURRECTION

1 THES. 4 [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and THE DEAD IN CHRIST SHALL RISE FIRST: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

ISAIAH 26 [16] Lord, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them. [17] Like as a woman with child, that draweth near the time of her delivery, is in pain, and crieth out in her pangs; so have we been in thy sight, O Lord. [18] We have been with child, we have been in pain, we have as it were brought forth wind; we have not wrought any deliverance in the earth; neither have the inhabitants of the world fallen. [19] THY DEAD MEN SHALL LIVE, TOGETHER WITH MY DEAD BODY SHALL THEY ARISE. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. [20] Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. [21] For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

REV. 20 [4] And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. [5] But THE REST OF THE DEAD LIVED NOT AGAIN UNTIL THE THOUSAND YEARS WERE FINISHED. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

THE 2nd RESURRECTION (The Great White Thrown)

JOHN 5 [28]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; THEY THAT HAVE DONE GOOD, unto the resurrection of life; and THEY THAT HAVE DONE EVIL, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Youll notice theres nothing in the above scripture about belief in Christ or God. Also at that time the good and the bad shall come forth.

REV. 20 [11]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and THE BOOKS WERE OPENED: and another book was opened, which is THE BOOK OF LIFE: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Again, no mention of belief in Jesus or God. They are simply judged by their works.

MATTHEW 19 [16]And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. [18] He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, [19] Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

The works these people will be judged by is that portion of the ten commandments that pertain to your interaction with man. Jesus tells us that, so you can take it to the bank. The man asked Jesus how he should attain eternal life. Jesus did not mention even one of the ten commandments that deal with your interaction with God. Had Jesus been asked, how shall I be saved? Jesus would have given a totally different answer.

ACTS 24 [14] But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: [15] And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

 

That is precisely the requirment and the problem that the lost face when confronted by the real meaning and depth of the Law of God.

It is amazing how often a discussion of the Romans 6 Law of God for the saved gets "circled back" to the view of the Law from the standpoint of the unsaved context.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Fortunately the Word of God is "not up for a vote".

James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

Those who value the "sola sciptura" model of doctrinal testing instead of "popular vote" will find that the Bible is often very different from the "preferences" of man-made traditions.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You said

I show how your statement exactly contradicts James 2

And then you craftily - sidestep-change-point

Let me guess - "readers are not supposed to notice"

 

John 14:15 - "If you Love Me Keep My Commandments"


in Christ,

Bob

 

Agreed. One has to first be saved before they can engage in the Romans 8 walk by faith - "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" - walking in the "obedience of faith".

 

Yes, and by what standard does God judge our love? Can one say they love their neighbor and murder, commit adultery, steal, bear false witness and covet? Can one love God and worship idols and blaspheme Him and His name? We always come back to the evidence that faith doesn’t abolish the law it confirms it and we are to be judged by it as to whether we actually love God and our neighbor. Consequently, I must side with Bob Ryan here that we are to be judged by the law as to whether our faith is genuine.

So it's not whether I like that we are judged by the law: we are judged by it whether we like it or not! I didn't vote because keeping the law doesn't save us; it determines our standing in the kingdom.

Michael

 

No sir - I am disagreeing with your interpretation of scripture which, by the way, is just as fallibile as mine. So - now what?

How in the world can you seriously overlook the enormous amount of scripture, which speaks of the importance of works toward salvation and judgement - and please don't use the "well…that only means the Jews" crutch because it just doesn’t work. The preponderance of the scriptural evidence is overwhelming and undeniable! What follows is just a fraction that exists.

Luke 6: 46-49
"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do [WORKS] what I command? I will show you what someone is like who comes to me, listens to my words, and acts [WORK] on them.
That one is like a person building a house, who dug deeply and laid the foundation on rock; when the flood came, the river burst against that house but could not shake it because it had been well built.
But the one who listens and does not act [WORK] is like a person who built a house on the ground without a foundation. When the river burst against it, it collapsed at once and was completely destroyed."

James 1:22-24
But be doers of the word [WORKS], and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if any one is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who observes his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like.

James 2:24
See how a person is justified by WORKS and not by faith alone."

John 9:31
"We know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will [WORKS], He hears him.

Rom 2:11-16
5 By your stubbornness and impenitent heart, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of wrath and revelation of the just judgment of God,
6 who will repay everyone according to his WORKS:
7 eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through perseverance in good WORKS,
8 but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."

2 Corinthians 5:8-10
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body [WORKS], according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Hebrews 6:10-12
For God is not so unjust as to overlook your WORK and the love which you showed for his sake in serving the saints, as you still do. And we desire each one of you to show the same earnestness in realizing the full assurance of hope until the end, so that you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Jeremiah 17:10
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings [WORKS].

Revelation 2:23
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your WORKS.

Revelation 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS.

Rom 2:11-16
11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law [WORKS] will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Matthew 25:31-46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
32 "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 "He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left."
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
35 "For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, "
36 "I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. [WORKS,WORKS,WORKS, WORKS, and WORKS]"
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
38 "When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?
39 "When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?"
40" The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.[WORKS]"
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 "For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 "I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me."
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?"
45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.[ABSENCE OF GOOD WORKS]"
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Again, you don't answer questions when they are put to you. Satan and the demons believe don't they? Are they saved through their faith?

Peace!

 

In the future corporate judgment - works are judged as you point out.

But remember that as Christ stated in Matt 7 the works reveal the kind of tree that is producing them. Good fruits come from a good tree.

If the person is born-again - the "New Creation" of 2Cor 5 then he will show himself to by his works - and what Paul calls the "obedience of faith" and the "obedience of the Gospel".

As you already pointed out in Romans 2 - the life reveals whether the person is really born again or not.

And persevering in that walk of faith - is the fruit of those who will still be saved at the end.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I don't overlook any Scripture. I look at the context and I know what it means. I also know how many places the Bible teaches one is not saved by works, but rather by grace through faith.

I also observe that you completely ignore what I gave you and just went on to copy and paste a list of verses. Anyone can do that. The nature of debate is to answer the other person's point. I'll post it again. See what you can do with it.

Romans 4:4-5 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

See what you can do this time with the Scripture that explicitly says to the one that does no work but simply believes on Jesus, his faith is counted for righteousness.