The Implications of Original Sin

When God is the cause of everything and man can create nothing as purported by Biblicist and I am certain others as well, something has to be the creator of evil....unless you want to tell us that evil has always existed. When one takes such a position that man is not the creator of anything nor can he be, and something exists like sin. what other cause can you place on sin but God himself?

 

I love it when someone tries to tell me what we believe. How many books on original sin have you read? Did you actually read Robert Shaw's entire section that you are quoting. He is not saying, in any sense, that God made us that way. In his book "Confession of Faith" Shaw goes out of his way to explain that it was not God who made us sinners but, it was clearly Adam's disobedience. If you read the book, you may know his focus a little better. BTW, I do ask you for a clear citation and page number on these quotation

If you want to know what we believe, start with Edwards. If you have any questions on Edwards, please let me know.

Finally, you still never answered my question. Who is orthodox but disavows original sin? Why don't you want to answer a simple question? Are you just wanting to misrepresent me?

 

Ruiz brings up Wesley. Wesley stated in at least two places as I recall, that he knew full well he was far too close to Calvinism. Wesley did believe in original sin but he did NOT attribute guilt on that account. That was a clear logical inconsistency, but oh those blessed inconsistencies!

It is clear to me that the reason why he knew he was so close to Calvinism was right under his nose. Original sin. No one believing in original sin can logically deny double predestination, irresistible grace, guilt directly associated with the nature they are born with, and God being the author of sin. Oh they can deny anything they want to but the logical connection still exists. They will never shake the necessitated logical ends of original sin, try as they may, no matter how many exclamation points they place after sentences, or how loud they beat on the pulpit, or the personal attacks on the messenger that remind them of those logical ends. Necessitated logical ends are exactly what they are, necessitated by God inspired logic.

 

This is not entirely accurate according to Wesley (The Doctrine of Original Sin, 1757, The Works of John Wesley, 157 and 254) the doctrine of original sin includes guilt. In his explanation of why babies die, he says that they too sinned, but not actual. He attributed it to original sin. There are other places he attributes that the guilt of original sin is upon us.

 

HP: You may well be correct in your rendering. Wesley, as all other writers, (except myself and a few other rare birds:laugh have some inconsistencies in their writings as one might expect especially considering the volume of writings Wesley wrote in his life time, and the progression of thought all go through.

Take Augustine for instance. He went from believing in free will and denying anything close to original sin to establishing the dogma of original sin no less. Strange progressions of thought indeed.

 

I think I would need a citation of Augustine. Earlier this year I read much of Augustine and did not see his soteriological standings on this issue inconsistent from his other issues. Freewill is not a rejected doctrine, but it should not be defined properly.

Wesley, as well, was not inconsistent. If you read his writings he was very consistent in this aspect.

 

Dahhhh! Of course we do not deny that Adam acted as the Representative of mankind - "by one offence many be dead.....by one offence many were made sinners" so obviousy we believe God imputed sin to all He represented and sin is infused through generation from father to children. Is that your point??????

If that was your original point then why make the charge that Calvinists believe our sin nature originates from God or God's design by quoting the Westminister statement which identified the ORIGIN of our sin nature "FROM THE ORIGINAL CORRUPTION" but never said a word about it originated from God or God's design?

If that was your original point then why change the subject from from ORIGIN to MEANS OF TRANSMISSION? Isn't it self-evident that our view of TRANSMISSION is by imputation and physical birth?

Is the readers supposed to be shocked and awed that we believe the fallen human nature is what is passed down from father to children? Or that we beleive God by design placed Adam in a representative capacity for all of mankind in the test in the garden?????????

If that was your point, may I ask why you needed to quote the westminister confession or Shaw since we have been repeating that was our position over and over and over and over and over and over again???????????

Obviously that was not your point. You stuck your foot in your mouth and then tried to extract it gracefully by simply switch and bait routine.

If that was your original point then why quote

However, that is not what the Westminister statement was talk

 

Why Bro. Jerry, didn't you know that God loves to place the non-elect on a skewer and roast them in the flames, over their evil deeds that they had no other choice to do but commit them?

 

Read concerning Augustine in "Earlier Writings", in LCC,k 6:102........and "ON Free Will." III, 46 ibid., p.199

That is the reference given in "The History of Christian Ethics Vol I by George Wolfgang Forell

 

Well, if we are born sinners, seperated from God, then what sin did we commit to make us this way? In original sin(as the DoGer's hold it), God places Adam's guilt on us.

 

I don't know of anyone that believes that theory do you?

 

"BY one man's offence MANY WERE MADE sinners" - Rom. 5:19

"BY one man's offence MANY BE DEAD" - Rom. 5:15

"For as IN Adam ALL DIE."
" - 1 Cor. 15:22

All had to be "IN" Adam because that is where DEATH is.

 

God is love. God created Adam in love. Adam was God's perfect creation. Adam had a sinless nature as he walked with God.

God loved and trusted Adam so much, He let him name the animals whatever he wished. God gave Adam the freedom to choose.

God knew that Adam would be tempted, but He still loved and trusted Adam to choose to listen to Him. Love always thinks the best.

When Adam chose to listen to and believe Satan, then ate the fruit, he took on the nature of Satan and lost his true identity.
All of Adam's children took on this sinful nature, separated from God.

Jesus came to buy us back, to shed the sinful nature and become a new creation. Born again.
If we believe we are born again, we no longer have the sinful nature but are now sons and daughters of God.

We will always be tempted. Being tempted is not a sin.
Being tempted does not change us back to the sinful nature.

We have the potenial to sin, just like Adam had the potential to sin before the fall. The saved and the unsaved both have the same potenial to sin, because all are tempted. God trusts His children to choose not to sin.

Even if we do sin, we are not returned to the sinful nature, but are counted as God's children who He will chasten and teach and forgive because of the work of Christ, if you believe. Mercy and Grace.


Satan does not want us to believe that we can be born again and return to God as sons and daughters. He does not want us to renew our minds.

Satan wants us to believe we will always have a sinful nature, so the playing field is set up in our minds to his advantage. It fits with his plan, and he always bringing doubt. "Surely you will not die if you eat the fruit..."

To hold on to the belief that we will always have a sinful nature, is a lack of understanding of what born again into a new creation is. It's that simple.

 

Yes, and love hates darkness! Do you know that?

Yes, and love is defined within the boundaries of holiness and righteousness! Do you know that?

Love is not this sloppy agape being taught and thrown around today about some jolly Saint Nick sitting on the throne in heaven who just loves everyone and everythin! God is HOLY and His love IS HOLY and any kind of love that lacks holiness is simply not the love of God.

All of Adam's children did not take on this sinful nature by their own individual act of choice but were born with this sinful nature. They acted IN ADAM when Adam acted because the whole human nature existed in Adam when Adam acted and therefore "BY on man's offence MANY be dead.......MANY were made sinners."

What you are teaching is that "by MANY MEN'S OFFENCES many be dead....many were made sinners." Thus directly contradicting the Word of God!

Another false doctrine! Galatians 5:17 is addressed to SAVED person not lost persons:

Gal. 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

He is speaking in the present tense ("do") not the past tense! He is talking about christians "ye" not the lost.

Those who deny this fundemental truth have no concept of the basics of salvation or the basics of the Christian life or have any real understanding of the nature of sin or any basic understanding of progressive sanctification.

The sinful nature EXISTS within every saved man and that is why Paul could say in the PRESENT TENSE "I AM" cheif of sinners not I WAS!

In fact, your very teaching demonstratess you are walking in the flesh as what you write is the product of the flesh not the Spirit of God (1 Jn. 4:6).

Satan had control of your mind when you wrote the above! You are contradicting the Word of God and the Word of God has for its Author the Holy Spirit and He is not the Author of confusion. He will not write one thing and lead you to contradict what he says and you are contradicting the Word of God.

If you believe that temptation comes simply from WITHOUT you, you are deceived! There is something INSIDE you that has not been redeemed, that you must by the Spirit "mortify" put to death repeatedly in your experience but your polyanna doctrine of denial pretends it does not existence INSIDE you and thus you live in deception and not in reality.

 

No. However, w/o God giving them a chance(choice), then they were born/created for hell.

 

Correct. "In Adam" we all die. What's "in Adam"? Our flesh. The soul comes from God. "In Adam" dies, meaning the flesh WILL die, regardless being saved or not. Only the soul dies(seperated from God) when sin is accounted to it(Ezek. 18:4,20).