Featured Church of the Nazarene vs. Anglican

The Word says that the man who says he has no sin decieves himself and if we say we have not sinned we make HIM a liar, for HE has said that "all sin."

1Jo 1:6-10 If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


The writer of Hebrews took up this topic:

Hbr 10:1-4 For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

So, clearly, while under the law -- or IF under the law -- one's sin yet remains to be removed, for the law cannot actually remove sin, we still sin, even if perfectly under the law.

But, Christ came and crucified sin FOR US.

Hbr 10:5-14 Consequently, when Christ [fn] came into the world, he said, "Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; 6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings you have taken no pleasure. 7- Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God, as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'" 8 When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), 9 then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He does away with the first in order to establish the second. 10 And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 14 For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

Note WHO does the action above, and the verb tenses of that action...

CHRIST takes away the sin, and HIS effects are applied to us. HE is doing the applying, not us. And, eventually, all -- whether or not they like it -- WILL be placed under His feet on behalf of those WHO ARE BEING sanctified by HIM.

Further:

Hbr 10:15-23 And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, 16 "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds," 17 then he adds, "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more." 18 Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

Christ has paid the penalty. The Holy Spirit (whom we dare not blaspheme by saying that He has not...) bears witness with us of this truth. Christ writes His law on our hearts and in our minds -- we do not do that ourselves as some here have suggested -- and because CHRIST has done this great work we can enter the holy place as one righteous, not of our own efforts, but solely dependent on HIS. HE sprinkled our hearts with HIS blood. HE is faithful, even when we are not.

Our job then is to remind each other of this great gospel work! We are to gather together in such a manner as to worship the ONE who did this great atoning work for us. We are to remind each other to stop trying to sin against God. And, further, if we wilfully continue in our sin we must realize that there is NO FURTHER SACRIFICE THAT CAN BE MADE.

Hbr 10:29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace?

When we turn to our OWN EFFORTS we spurn the Son of God who did what we could not do. We profane the ultimate sacrifice, but there is no further "annual sacrifice" as was present in the OT to deal with our new sins against our Lord.

 

HP: I have no problem with either of these two statements as they are posted here. Again, my problems would lie in the definitions of original sin as purported by the CotN, NOT their statements here you posted standing alone.

HP: I would like to hear your views on the subject.

 

To suggest that a child of God has reached or can reach "full" sanctification in this life is not only irrational but ludricrous. The very fact that it is progressive in nature demands that by the very term "progressive" it is incomplete and unfinished and therefore there is always an element of sanctification lacking at all times.

The continuous exhortations by Paul and other Biblical writers to grow, to put on and put off, to put on spiritual armour, to resist, to fight, to yeild, to walk, demonstrate clearly that sin is always present and at work in the Christians life and there is a present spiritual warfare not merely external to the nature of the child of God but within the child of God that is never completed in this life.

The idea of a second blessing, or second level of grace contradicts not only the metaphors of spiritual growth (children, young men, fathers) but contradicts that a child of God is to "walk AS YE RECEIVED" (Col. 2:6) as that doctrine demands there is something you did not receive that one must yet receive.

Acts 11:15-16 proves that the baptism in the Spirit is not an individual personal experience because the nearest reference that Peter could give for such a event was "AT the beginning" rather than "SINCE the beginning" with literally the thousands which had been added from the time of Pentecost.

The "filling" of the Spirit is not a second act of sanctification but merely a repeatable act whereby we come under the direction of the Spirit and is not sustained simply because we are still subject to sin and the fleshly nature.

The idea of living above sin or a second level of grace is due to a fundemental ignorance of the unredeemed aspect of our human nature and more importantly fundemental ignorance of the nature of sin.

Those who teach this doctrine necessarily deny the true nature of salvation as well as the gospel of Jesus Christ, as well as pervert the standard of righteousness demanded by the Law of God to some lower level or standard.

 

The concept of a second blessing or complete sanctification before our glorification in the presence of God misses one of the big issues of soteriology, i.e., that we WILL be glorified, which WILL complete the task of being conformed to the image of Christ.

The entire discussion is akin to the over-realized eschatology of the Corinthian people, who (wrongly) thinking that they were already completely sanctified, they cared no longer if they sinned, or the nature of those sins, for all was done and they were in their final state. As I recall, Paul took them to task about the issue on multiple occaisions, two of which we have recorded as 1 & 2 Corinthians.

 

HP: Michael, if you basically agree with that arrogant over the top remark, that is nothing more than a thinly veiled personal attack, denoting any and all that would believe in sanctification as a second work of grace, as out side of the faith preaching another gospel, perverting the law of God, and as such justly to be condemned and to be cursed, (see, I know the rest of the verse) you are certainly beyond the pale of reasonable discussion.

Biblicist deserves nothing but condemnation from the moderators of this board when he posts such remarks.

 

OSAS, the way you describe it -- though held by any number of persons out there -- is not precisely the way that the Bible states it. It is not just "saved and nothing else matters..." Paul took care of that when he said, "By all means not..." in regards to remaining sinful after salvation (anti-nomian).

The principle in Scripture is "persevere" or "endure" until the end.

Gill, supralapsarian and thought by some to be "hyper-Calvinist" ( include that info because if one who holds as strongly as that to God's sovereignty sees perseverence as a primary doctrine than it is likely so) said it like this:

What I think you are describing is in fact called "easy believism" and as I said, some do hold to that tenet. Those who are cognizant of their doctrines in accordance with Scripture would not, however, for we recognize that God's forgiveness of sin is not also license to sin.

As an aside, who exactly DO YOU THINK teaches what you suggested as OSAS where sin no longer matters? Just wondering... I've not seen that many groups that identify with Christianity that are all about rampant sin simply because they are saved. Rather, I mostly find the topic coming up in discussions as a point to be used to bash an oponent over the head, but in any case, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and let you show me where some are that do hold that doctrine the way you suggest.

 

the truth is that what keeps ANY of us kept as stasying saved is the person and power of God!

Simple fact that jesus said that he WILL rise up ALL those His father gave Him to be saved...

he and the father are One, NONE take them out from God!

No Way and NONE means ME and You!

 

HP: When you eliminate the will of man from playing any part, placing all emphasis on God and God alone, you necessitate deterministic fatalism. You necessitate double predestination, for if one does not get saved or keep saved it is God refusing to do that which is necessary for salvation to happen or to continue. It makes a mockery of punishment for refusing to do, what is in reality is, an impossibility, if the necessary means to accomplish are not chosen by God Himself.

One makes a mockery of very warning to examine ones self, or to stay faithful until the end, for if you have it your way, it is either a done deal or no deal, without the least input one way or another from the man, God, according to Scripture, holds accountable for the outcome.

No DAChaser1, it is not all up to God. God has granted to man a will to exercise without which no salvation is possible nor will it be maintained. Again, you are suggesting a system of absolute fatalism, which is simply not set forth in Scripture or reason.

 

HP: We have some on this board, including one preacher, that testifies to sinning everyday in thought word and deed. So, I can say I know someone, on this board, that admits he sins daily and yet sin has no effect on his salvation. That is simply stating, 'I remain saved regardless of my actions or words.' If that is not a license to sin, nothing is. If that is not pure antinomianism, what else could it be?

 

Well, were they confused or did you never hear it discussed??

 

problem with that view is that the Bible states that GOD is the One that keeps us in jesus, that HE makes sure none are lost!

 

its Gods Will, per jesus, that NONE that he saves get ever again lost...

The NT has NO verses supporting that a christian saved by grace of God can undo/lose His eternal life!

 

We teach a believer is Justified by grace through faith alone and is being sanctified by Jesus Christ through the indwelling Holy Spirit. Complete sanctification is not attainable while still in this body of death, it is a mortal life long process.