Featured Is Cal/Non-Cal important enough to divide?

http://www.generalbaptist.com/#/identity/statements-of-faith

V. ASSURANCE AND ENDURANCE
We believe that those who abide in Christ have the assurance of salvation. However, we believe that the Christian retains his freedom of choice; therefore, it is possible for him to turn away from God and be finally lost.
(A) Assurance: Matt. 28:20; I Cor. 10:13; Heb. 5:9. (B) Endurance: Matt. 10:22; Lk. 9:62; Col. 1:23; Rev. 2:10-11; 3:3-5. (C) Warnings: Jn. 15:6; Rom. 11:20-23; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 3:12; 10:26-29; II Pet. 2:20-21. (D) Finally Lost: Jn. 15:6; I Cor. 9:27; Heb. 6:4-6.

Classical Arminians believe:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminian

"Eternal security is also conditional: All believers have full assurance of salvation with the condition that they remain in Christ. Salvation is conditioned on faith, therefore perseverance is also conditioned.[20] Apostasy (turning from Christ) is only committed through a deliberate, willful rejection of Jesus and renunciation of saving faith. Such apostasy is irremediable"

In other words, if you lose your salvation, you can never get it back.

Wesleyan Arminians (which most modern day Arminian churches are) believe:

"Possibility of apostasy – Wesley fully accepted the Arminian view that genuine Christians could apostatize and lose their salvation, as his famous sermon "A Call to Backsliders" clearly demonstrates. Harper summarizes as follows: "the act of committing sin is not in itself ground for the loss of salvation...the loss of salvation is much more related to experiences that are profound and prolonged. Wesley sees two primary pathways that could result in a permanent fall from grace: unconfessed sin and the actual expression of apostasy." [25] Wesley disagrees with Arminius, however, in maintaining that such apostasy was not final. When talking about those who have made "shipwreck" of their faith (1 Tim 1:19), Wesley claims that "not one, or a hundred only, but I am persuaded, several thousands...innumerable are the instances...of those who had fallen but now stand upright."

They do indeed believe that a person can get saved and lost more than once.

John

 

You're correct in a sense, as it is choice that is the cornerstone, which is one reason the possible loss of salvation remains in classic Arminianism, and why Arminian-ish theologies continue the trail of placing man as the determinative factor. Mans power of choice can override God in arminian/non-Calvinist theology. This is one of their glaring errors, and it permeates all of their theology making it errant and anthropocentric.

 

I disagree. The Arminian churches I have visited focused on a warning to believers to remain "Holy" so that they do not lose their salvation. They were stressing this more than anything else. Warning Christians not to return to being a sinner and losing their salvation.

John

 

Preacher, i do agree with part of what you said here. I believe that a lost man has a choice to accept salvation, but I don't believe God would ever let a saved person go. God would not break the seal of the HS or His promises no matter how much a Christian fails. I believe that God will chastise a fallen Christian until fellowship with God is restored, or in some cases, God just takes them home. In other words, "Chastises unto death" if they refuse to return to full fellowship with Him.

John

 

I also believe in OSAS. One problem I have with Arminianism/Non-Calvinist theology is the errant view of freewill and that we choose God, when in fact it is He who has chosen us. We think we chose Him, but that is not the entire truth.

Anyhow, Arminian theology was a reaction against the Sovereignty of God and His choosing, and sought to give man a higher place, higher than than what is Biblical, making man the determining factor in salvation. After this we have other errors that have crept in, such as man thinking himself good pre salvation, not accepting the indictment of God on all mankind according to Romans 3 &c. This is a rejection (and is quite telling) against the Holy Spirits work in convicting the world of sin, righteousness (not mans) and judgment.

Instead we have those who have climbed into the flock their own way, rejecting the truth that they were ungodly pre salvation, fighting for themselves that they were doing good, that they were seeking God among other errors. Such are false teachers.

Jesus died for the ungodly, the 'good' don't need a Physician.

 

From the website you posted:

http://evangelicalarminians.org/Outline.FACTS-of-Arminianism-vs-the-TULIP-of-Calvinism

"Security in Christ (Article 5)
• Since salvation comes through faith in Christ, the security of our salvation continues by faith in Christ.
• Just as the Holy Spirit empowered us to believe in Christ, so he empowers us to continue believing in Christ.
• God protects our faith relationship with him from any outside force irresistibly snatching us away from Christ or our faith, and he preserves us in salvation as long as we trust in Christ.
•Arminians have differing views of whether Scripture teaches that believers can forsake faith in Christ and so perish, or whether God irresistibly keeps believers from forsaking their faith and therefore entering into eternal condemnation (as unbelievers)."

http://evangelicalarminians.org/?q=sof

"7. We believe that God’s saving grace is resistible, that election unto salvation is conditional on faith in Christ, and that persevering in faith is necessary for final salvation."

In other words, they believe that salvation is not finished or completed until we have "perservered in faith" until death. Looks like conditional salvation to me.

John

 

I have a close relative that believes that she was given faith, and granted Grace because she was a 'good person'. She thinks only good people can get saved.

Yep preacher, lots of folks take their freewill to an extreme and get all prideful and full of themselves because God picked them. Some Cals do the same thing though. BTW, she also believes that she must maintain a state of Holiness to retain her salvation....go figure

John

 

I believe that God chooses everybody, but not everbody chooses God.

I reckon that it would appear that I chose God without His consent and on my own, but that is not the case. I merely responded to His call. I believe he calls everyone, but everyone does not choose to respond.

You are really talking about the meat of the issue between Cals and non-Cals.

Non cals think that Cals are arrogant because they believe that they are the "Chosen" or the "Elect"

And Cals think that non-cals are arrogant because they believe that they cn be saved by their own freewill.

I would submit to you that neither position is entirely right, and neither is entirely wrong.

John

 

What we need to remember is that theologizing is a human effort, liable to err here and there.

At any rate, the Lord knows those who are his.

 

Well, this thread turned out to be a decent and enlightening discussion, but bed time is here.

Good night

John

 

:applause::thumbsup: Winman.....i have to agree with you when i can:love2:

 

WELL John,

At least this shows you are willing to stand by what your local church holds as a statement of faith:thumbsup:
In a calvinist church the members are to look over the confession of faith to see if they can submit to it in general.....if not why would they want to join.

Trust me John , I could visit your church...pray for any unsaved that are there the the word preached would convict them....but why would I want to go where people oppose the truth of God's absolute sovereignty?

 

Opposing any revealed bible truth is a sin:type:

 

Nice post EWF:applause::applause:

 

This has to be a first! :thumbsup:

Oh, I am sure we agree on many things. But I cannot agree that God does not give a man a choice to believe or not, this is where we part ways.

I do not see it as degrading to God to give man a choice. Who determined men would have a choice? God! God made the rules, not us.

If God had determined we would have to do good works to get to heaven, that would be the rules. God is calling the shots.

Thank God that is not how we are saved, because I know I would fail. I thank God that he provided his Son to die for all men (because that includes me), and that by simply placing trust in Jesus I can have my sins forgiven.

But man making the choice of believeing or not does not usurp God in any way whatsoever. If you submit to God and believe in Jesus you will be saved, if you reject Jesus you will be lost. God is in total control. If you get saved, you have to do it God's way.