Featured Seeking truth about "tongues"...

To be "in" the Spirit means to be living, functioning, acting, thinking, speaking, working, in the Sphere of, or UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE SPIRIT.

Tongues is a LANGUAGE/DIALECT just as English is a language/dialect. Regardless of what langauge one may be speaking and regardless of HOW one is speaking (praying, preaching, singing, prophesying, etc.) if it is not done UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE SPIRIT it is done under the leadership of the flesh - there are no other options.

Hence, to "pray" in the Spirit simply means whatever dialect the prayer may vocalize it is being vocalized under the leadership of the Spirit and is no different than you or me praying in ENGLISH under the leadership of the Spirit - IT IS NO SPECIAL PRAYER TONGUE!!!! It is just praying in a dialect JUST AS YOU PRAY IN ENGLISH under the leadership of the Spirit. The ONLY difference is the Dialect - period!

So John the Baptist could pray as spiritual and as equal as the corinthians could in Swahili or spanish, etc.

 

So you're saying all of us who are Christians should be praying in languages?

There's a reason for that, and we're now fast approaching it.

Other than most people viewing "with" as basically the same thing as "in"?

What difference do you see between "with the world" and "in the world"? Or "in my family" or "with my family"?

But the only answer I'm looking for is to the question above about should all Christians pray in languages.

 

Gee, come to think of it, I can't remember anything in the NT about praise & worship.
I guess we'd better outlaw it, starting tomorrow.
But, praise God, one more night of P&W @ church!
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A "dumb idol" is only dumb (or dead) from the perspective of a Christian to whom Paul was writing to. Don't ever tell a Hindu that, or any other person that worships "idols." Clearly you don't understand idol worship. Let's use examples from the Bible.
What happened when Aaron made a golden calf at the time when Moses was 40 days in the Mount with the Lord.
He said: "Behold your god O Israel."
But they didn't consider the calf their actual god. It was a representation of their God (Jehovah). Jehovah was a spirit. They understand that. They wanted something concrete, something that they could see; something in their minds that would represent him or picture him. They bowed down to the calf, the calf replacing Jehovah.

Secondly, and probably easier to understand, is the god Baal, which is worshiped throughout the OT. They made idols of Baal and bowed down before them. The idol itself is not the god. It is a representation of the god. The god is not that which is dumb. The god (to them is alive and active). They truly believed he could accomplish miraculous things. That is why Elijah challenged them to call upon their god, Baal to bring fire down from heaven and consume their sacrifice, and he would call fire down from heaven and consume his sacrifice, and whoever would act, that would be the true God. We know what happened. It is not the idol, the statue, that they expected to open his mouth and wave its arms. It was the god or spirit behind the statue.
They danced upon the altar. They cut themselves with knives. But their god was silent. Elijah mocked them. They knew the idol itself was dumb. But the god was not dumb. Demons speak. They speak in tongues. They posses people. They do terrible things. Have you heard of witch-doctors, priests and priestesses?

The verse does not make sense unless some of them were. How can you say they weren't?

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
--Paul writes as he did because this was happening. Otherwise the verse makes no sense. Why does he include it? Because there was a problem.
--The first part of 7:1, the key verse to this chapter says:

Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me:
--This was a problem that they had written to them about. He is now giving them the answer. Some of them were calling Christ accursed. It was a problem. He was telling them how to differentiate.

You can also say the Christ is accursed in the non-biblical tongues that you speak. How do you know? You don't know what you are saying!!!!!

Again, the verse does not make sense, unless some were. Paul does not write in vain.

That is right; but other spirits can; the pagan spirits that they worshiped in their pagan background could. They were bringing some of that pagan background into the church, just as they did in other areas of their lives--as I pointed out to you showing you how Paul addressed it in every previous chapter.

He also shows how the carnal spirit manifests itself. You seem to gloss over that part.

The demons or false spirits of dumb idols speak. Understand that!!!

Paul does not speak in vain. He does not write those words for nothing. They have meaning. There were some that were calling Christ accursed. Let me give you a personal example.

I have a friend (a reputable pastor) who relates this this actually happened. He can give the names, the time and the place. Two men, (also pastors were traveling in the western part of the nation through a small town where there were very few churches. It was Sunday and the only church in the town was a Charismatic church so they decided to go to it. It was a strange experience for them since neither of them had been in one before. One of these men was a visiting pastor from Greece. After the opening prayer, many (if not most) of the people stood up and started speaking in tongues (without interpretation). This man from Greece motioned to his friend and said: "We have to leave immediately!" The other said: "Why, what is the hurry?" The evangelist replied: "See the man in front of me; he is speaking in perfect Greek 'I love the devil; I love the devil; I love the devil.'"
Now that is a true story, and I am not making it up. It happens today as it happened in Corinth. No man speaking by the Holy Spirit will call Jesus accursed, but they will if they are under the influence of another spirit. It happens.

 

I have explained these verses many times, but you have never successfully refuted the explanation.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
--This is not permission to speak or pray to God. It says not to. It is a rebuke. It simply says that God understands all languages. It is saying that God understands when you speak in a language and you have no interpreter. Don't do it. It won't edify anyone but yourself and only God understands, so don't do it. It is not permission to do it; it is a rebuke.

1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
--Paul never condones anything that is unfruitful. This is condemnation not condoning prayer. If one is praying in another language and only the human spirit is praying then don't do it because it is unfruitful. It is wrong. It is sin. There is no interpreter. There is no edification.



I do not see them speaking to the people! Yes! The people heard them speaking. When Peter stood up and spoke the scriptures say that he SAID UNTO THEM. It does not say when they spoke in tongues they said UNTO the people. It simply says they spoke in tongues as the Holy Spirit gave the utterance. It was not until "this was noised abroad" that the people gathered. They were speaking in tongues BEFORE the gathered together!

Paul says that if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant concerning those things he spoke of! How much plainer does he have to get when he says tongues is speaking to God/blessing with the spirit/praying in the spirit.

Again...show me where you can not speak to God in private in ANY language! How much plainer does he have to get....tongues is PRAYING IN THE SPIRIT (VS. 14).

1 Corinthians 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
--Speaking in other language is not mentioned.
Prayer in the spirit with understanding, singing in the spirit with understanding are the two things that are mentioned here.
From A.T. Robertson, Greek scholar:

It is not speaking of the Holy Spirit. The KJV translators are not wrong. They use a small "s" to indicate the human spirit.

Forbid not to speak in tongues (in the first century). Speaking in tongues have ceased. You demonstrate that in your own life. If you could speak in other languages you would be able to tell me the languages that you speak in. But you can't. For all I know you could be worshiping the devil instead, as in the example I gave you.

Obviously some were calling Jesus accursed by another spirit. Paul doesn't write in vain. The Holy Spirit put those words there for a purpose.

And they did receive the Holy Spirit. But the message of Peter was about salvation. The promise of Jesus was only directed to the 12. He promised them (as they obeyed his command to wait in Jerusalem) that he would send THEM, the Holy Spirit. Peter promised the rest of the Jews, salvation, if they would believe on Christ. That was the promise he gave them.
What should the Jews do.
Repent and be baptized every one of you for the remission of sins....(Acts 2:38).

The demons behind the idols are not dumb. They do speak in tongues.

Yes the Holy Spirit says that Christ is Lord; but demons don't. That is the meaning of the passage. Learn it.

However, many of the unsaved do speak in tongues. It is a heathen practice noted in many pagan religions of the world.

Because the Scripture does not testify to it. Only the twelve (possibly the 120 but unlikely) spoke in tongues. And that is all. The 3,000 did not speak in tongues. You can't get that out of the passage. That is eisigeses. You might as well teach that they got saved when they were baptized as the RCC does. Your misinterpretation of doctrine doesn't make it true.

 

I have never said that tongues was a more spiritual prayer! I simply said it was "praying in the spirit" as Paul said it was!
We know what Paul means when he uses the phrase "in the Spirit" because we know in 1 Cor. 14:2 that it says that tongues is speaking to God. We do not have to put OUR interpretation on what Paul meant! THe Bible defines it! If "praying in the spirit" in 1 Cor. 14:2, 14, 15 28 refers to tongues, we have every reason to conclude that "praying in the Spirit" is tongues! In context of 1 Cor. 14 "praying in the spirit" is tongues!

 

I was speaking of tongues used in the service as praise and worship. I just wanted to know how you backed that up with scriptures. Why the attitude?

 

Well lets look at the examples in scriptures when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit...Which ones did they leave out? OR did they ALL speak in tongues?

 

Paul called them dumb idols! I did not say they themselves thought they were! He was referring to the fact that they could not speak like our God can to us. I will reply to the rest later!

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How do you think they spoke BY the Holy Spirit? Tongues is how you speak by the Spirit! It is the Holy Spirit that gives the utterance!
Just because someone faked it does not prove that the real is fake too! That is why Paul is telling them that if you are "speaking By the spirit" you CAN NOT call God accursed!

 

I'm sorry, but you have demonstrated again your total lack of _________.
If there was no P&W mentioned, how could there be P&W avec tongues mentioned?
Again, you are not qualified to impress intellectuals.
To deal with them, you must be spiritual and intellectual both.
.

 

If you want a good understanding of this, start a thread:
"Do Catholics pray to "dumb idols?"
I was a Catholic for 20 years. I prayed before the "15 Stations of the cross," every one of them an image (what I would now call an idol). But ask a Catholic if he would call it a "dumb idol" and see the reaction you get.
If they pray before a statue of Mary and petition Mary to intercede for them, are they praying to the statue or to the actual Mary in heaven? Are they praying to the spirit that the statue represents, or are the Catholics in America stupid enough to believe the statues in their churches are actually going to open their mouths and talk to them?
This is what you are telling me, and this is what you believe the interpretation of the verse is. Before you go off spouting a silly interpretation learn something about it first. Start a thread on idolatry and the RCC and see what you can learn.

 

Be rational. If a man has never known Greek; never heard Greek; never spoken in Greek, but suddenly starts speaking in Greek and unwittingly, unknowingly praises the devil in Greek how is that "faking it."
You are unbelievable??
You would accuse another Christian for deliberately praising the devil in another language??
That is not what happened. He was obviously influenced by a demon and didn't know what he was saying. It happens as I said. Those who speak in tongues, many of them, are influenced by demons. Its origins are in paganism. It is not from the Holy Spirit. The real gift has ceased. You allow your carnal nature to get the best of you. You don't know what you are saying. You could be saying the same thing and don't even know it.

 

He prays "in the Spirit" when he prays his own dialect. A person can pray "in the Spirit" with or without the gift of forgeing dialects or with or without the gift of interpreting foreign dialects.

Whenever and wherever you pray in another foreign dialect than what the audiance can understand only God understands if it is a foreign dialect you are not trained in either. That is the context of 1 Cor. 14 - using other foreign dialects than what is known by the congregation. They don't understand it - not because it was a heavenly angel dialect but because it was a FOREIGN dialect to them. That is exactly what 1 Cor. 14:6-11 says - none in the congregation at Corinth understood the dialect being spoken and so they spoke into the air as even the speaker did not understand the dialect. Hence, ONLY GOD understood the dialect as He understands ALL DIALECTS.

There is no special "prayer dialect" that is "in the Spirit" except in your fertile imagination.

Your god is your experience. It is easy to see it is your god because it will not submit to the scriptures of the True and Living God - Isa. 8:20

 

I think it is the other way around...you let your carnal nature get in the way of understanding spiritual things!

 

Praying with the spirit is different than praying with the understanding! Paul made that clear in vs. 15-19.

Yes! THat is why he says when we speak in an unknown tongue we are speaking to God! The rest is not edified unless it is interpreted.

Then you need to take verse 2, 14, 15 and 28 out of your Bible to fit your theory! Because they all say "praying in the spirit" "speaking in tongues" and "speaking to God" is the same thing in context of chapter 14!

 

You are the one that brought up the dumb idols! I never said they thought they would speak to them. I said Paul said they are dumb idols!

 

Really?...and the 12 disciples...were they learned men?

 

Should all Christians pray in languages?

 

Stop using "tongue" and start using "dialect" and your imaginary doctrine will disappear.

There is no understanding whenever someone speaks a foreign dialect in which they have had no training or when an audiance hears a foreign dialect in which they have had no training. That is the context! Look at the context for pete's sake and it tells you that clearly - vv. 6-11. So 1 Cor. 14:2 make perfect sense in such a context.

If I came into your house and spoke Dutch and neither you nor I were trained in Dutch that would be the gift of dialects. Whatever I said, whether it was praying, singing, preaching, prophesyin in Dutch would be known only to God. However, Paul forbids us to do this personally or publically without understanding because it profts NOBODY including the speaker. We have proven this in the context and you could not respond. Now, you wait a little while and start back repeating the same nonsense.

No, you need to learn how to study scripture in context as you are jerking whatever you like out of context and making a doctrine as you go! Stop using the term "tongue" and use "dialect" and a fourth of your nonsense will disappear. Acknowledge that 1 Cor. 14:1-12 is in a church context where only the exercise of gifts where EVERYBODY understands is demanded and another fourth of your nonsense will disappear. Acknowledge that when this is violated and neither speaker or hearer understand the particular foreign dialect being spoken and only God understands the dialect then another fourth of your nonsense will disappear. Finally acknowledge that Paul using the personal pronoun "I" providing his own example refuses to personally speak in tongues without understanding and all your nonsense disappears (1 Cor. 14:13-19).

We have just proven that "with" and "in" do not support your doctrine of a special prayer dialect but equally apply to any prayer in any dialect under the leadership of the Spirit simply because to be UNDER THE LEADERSHIP OF THE SPIRIT your spirit is the means through which the Spirit operates through whatever you say or do!!!!! So you are no more edified in praying "in the Spirit" than anything else you say or do "in the Spirit."