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Featured To Obey God rather than tradition is legalism? Really??

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jul 12, 2013.

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  1. Gup20

    Gup20 Active Member

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    Col 2:16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day—
     
    #121 Gup20, Jul 19, 2013
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NONE dispute that its always right to be obedient to God, but we DO dispute that keeping the law/Sabbath/ etc is the means by which the Lord either saves, or keeps us saved!

    Justification before God based upon death of Jesus and His resurrection, PERIOD!

    receive jesus as messiah, and you are forever saved by grace of God, THEN you start out in the continually process of sauntification!

    You theology same as RCC, BOTH of you have to have sinners get right enoguh to merit salvation by God!
     
    #122 Yeshua1, Jul 19, 2013
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Making stuff up does not help your argument.

    You would just as soon argue that the first 3 commandments are to be tossed under the bus - so that OSAS can be preserved.

    That was debunked with Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" and in the case of Romans 11 and Gal 5:4 on the other OSAS threads.

    John says the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12. Turns out -- John is right.

    Not as a means to earn salvation - but as a description of the saints.

    Exodus 20    [FONT=&quot]
    6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    John 14
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


    1 John 5
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Rev 14:12
    12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

    Saints are not those who are "Severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4 - they are "the other guys".
    [/FONT]

    Surely every thread cannot be OSAS - with this group?

    OR can it??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #123 BobRyan, Jul 19, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2013
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Col 2 is about the shadow Sabbaths - the annual Sabbaths that started in Lev 23 and end with Christ.

    It is not talking about the moral Law of God.

    Even so - Matt 7 before the cross ALSO condemns judging others and almost everyone here has enough Bible knowledge to know that EVEN the ceremonial laws were in FULL force when the "do not judge" command was also applicable - PRE-cross.

    You cannot use Col 2 to destroy the Law of God. The argument there does not stand up to the test of scripture.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #124 BobRyan, Jul 19, 2013
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Sabbath is given in Gen 2:3 even in by Westminster Confession of Faith - and Baptist Confession of Faith standards.

    Ex 16 reminds us that the "very day" was known and selected and kept BEFORE the Ex 20 writing in stone.

    There is No command in Ex 12 or any other text calling for a week-day-1 Cycle of Sabbath.

    I think we all know that easy detail by now.

    Your eisegete of Ex 12 fails because it is NOT talking about the first day of the week - but the first day of an annual feastival that starts on the TENTH DAY of the FIRST MONTH - which will not come around again in that case for a YEAR - because it is an ANNUAL FEAST.

    And we both know it. No week-day-1 not even the first day of the month.

    You are reaching here - to eisegete a week-day-1 idea that simply is not in the text.


    Indeed - NOT week-day-1 BUT rather the first Month of the YEAR - - the TENTH day of that month and the first day of an ANNUAL feast that starts on the TENTH day.



    The tortured logic that turns the TENTH day of the FIRST month (as the first day of an ANNUAL feastival) into week-day-1 every week is more than a little transparent to the objective unbiased reader.

    Surely you did not think that elephant in your living room was going to get by without comment.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #125 BobRyan, Jul 19, 2013
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    You are misquoting it! It does not use the singular "Sabbath" but the plural "Sabbaths" referring the Whole sabbatical leviticual system under the Old Covenant
     
    #126 The Biblicist, Jul 19, 2013
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Why do you keep the law of the Lord?

    Does doing that either save you, or keep you saved?

    if one refused to obey Sabbath keeping, do they forfeit their salvation, as per Ellen White?
     
    #127 Yeshua1, Jul 19, 2013
  8. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Pick and choose Bob. There are not just 3, or 4, or 9 or even 10.
    There are 613. And if you are gong to keep one you must keep them all.
    If you fail in one you have failed in them all.
    For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point he is guilty of breaking all. (James 2:10).
    Telling a lie is just as bad as murder. Both break the law.
    But you don't keep the Sabbath anyway, do you?
    There is no possible way that you could fulfill all the Sabbatical laws--all the laws that relate to the Sabbath. If you are going to keep the Sabbath then keep ALL the laws that relate to it. Why pick and choose according to your convenience.

    Do you wear all one kind of clothing? Thou shalt not mix diverse kinds of clothing. You either wear all linen or all wool, You cannot wear any kind of polyester/cotton mix, or cotton/wool blends as many socks are. Is every article of the clothes that you are wearing, from head to foot, of all one kind of clothing? That is the law Bob. Are you breaking it?

    Do you cook on Saturday? Make coffee or tea? That's work. It is also using fuel that you didn't store up the day before. You no doubt have a continuous flow of electricity to your house, as well as gas. You don't ask the gas or electricity company to give you twice as much on Friday if it was even possible. It is a continuous flow. You can't go on Friday and collect enough for Saturday.
    Remember the boy that was stoned for collecting wood on the Sabbath.
    I suppose you should be stoned as well according to the law if you use electricity or gas, because it wasn't stored ahead of time. You don't keep the Sabbath. You pretend to; but in reality you are hypocritical and just pretend.
     
    #128 DHK, Jul 19, 2013
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    John says the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12. Turns out -- John is right.

    Not as a means to earn salvation - but as a description of the saints.

    Exodus 20    [FONT=&quot]
    6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    John 14
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


    1 John 5
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Rev 14:12
    12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

    Saints are not those who are "Severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4 - they are "the other guys".
    [/FONT]

    Surely every thread cannot be OSAS - with this group?

    Surely you noticed one or two texts in that list.


    Did you ever have a chance to read 1Cor 6? Start with the "be not deceived" part because it speaks to the idea of keeping the moral law of God.

    1John 2:3-6?

    James 4:17?

    If not - I think you would enjoy reading them.

    Heb 8 the Law of God as known in Jer 31:31-33 is written on the heart under the New Covenant.

    This is the point where we can all be glad that the Baptist Confession of Faith - and D.L. Moody at least get this Bible teaching right.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #129 BobRyan, Jul 19, 2013
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You would just as soon argue that the first 3 commandments are to be tossed under the bus - so that OSAS can be preserved.

    That was debunked with Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" and in the case of Romans 11 and Gal 5:4 on the other OSAS threads.

    John says the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12. Turns out -- John is right.

    Not as a means to earn salvation - but as a description of the saints.

    Exodus 20    [FONT=&quot]
    6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    John 14
    15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.


    1 John 5
    2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
    3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

    Rev 14:12
    12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

    1 Cor 7:19 .. "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

    Saints are not those who are "Severed from Christ" and "Fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4 - they are "the other guys".
    [/FONT]

    Surely every thread cannot be OSAS - with this group?


    And there are 1050 commands in the NT.

    http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

    What is the "liimit" after which we can throw the Word of God under the bus??

    Apparently for some it is 9 for others 10, for others 613...

    Making stuff up - making up rules is a game that does not go very far if you look at the actual details.

    Is this the part where you are going to tell us that Christians can ignore the first 3 commandments since they have not kept them perfectly?

    Have popcorn - am listening.


    Indeed - and so if we tell Christians that it is ok to lie and murder since they cannot keep the law perfectly - Christ said in Matt 5 - we are doing wrong.

    I think we all get that part.

    Recall in the text above it is not "do not kill" as a way to "earn your way to heaven".

    We all got that part as well - right?


    Is this where you are about to make up something else on the spot?


    Either you are including that as a "Sabbath law" or you are back to your "613 is beyond the reasonable limit for listening to the Word of God" idea.

    May I remind you again of the 1050??

    Are you keeping them all - or are you telling Christians not to worry about what they read in either NT or OT because both have wayyy over 9, and 10 and ...

    Your solution is to dredge up the "Theocracy" idea that even the Baptist Confession of Faith solves in terms of civil laws, ceremonial laws, and moral laws.

    Your own guys have figured this out - why do you then debate it with an SDA as if Baptists had not already figured out that the moral law is still binding?

    Fine if you object to your fellow Baptists on this point - it is an in house debate. Why pretend it is just with SDAs??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #130 BobRyan, Jul 19, 2013
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't know about that. Why would I trust a site that teaches one needs to be baptized and speak in tongues in order to be saved. It is a heretical site that you gave a link for Bob. Give me one good reason why I should believe anything on that site.
    You tell me. You have free will to do what you want with your Bible. Do you have respect for it?
    There are 613 OT commands for every Jew to keep. If you want some verification for that ask Dr.Arch. We also just had a Hebrew missionary in our church, now a missionary to Jews and Muslims. In one of his messages he happened to say the same thing. The 613 would include the Ten Commandments. Just as those don't apply to Gentile believers neither does the fourth commandment. There is no place in Scripture where keeping the Sabbath is a command given to the Gentiles, not one place.
    Who is not looking at details?
    Do you wear all one kind of clothing or not?
    Do you keep all the law or not?
    Do you use fuel (electricity and gas) on the Sabbath or not?
    You don't even attempt to answer my post!!
    Is there something stopping you Bob?
    Your hypocrisy has no boundaries does it.
    You can't answer my questions so you divert the topic.
    What about the first three commandments? When have I not obeyed them? Who are you to judge me?
    Perhaps you don't understand English well.
    No one said it is OK to murder and lie.
    No one command said that Gentiles need to keep the Sabbath.
    It is what Paul taught:
    Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
    --If you don't keep them you are cursed under the law. That includes the Sabbath.
    May I remind you of cults.
    Jesus said: "If you love me keep MY commandments"
    He did not say "Keep the law." The law condemns; it doesn't save.
    Jesus came to give life. The law condemns and gives death.

    Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
    I have no idea what you are talking about.
    First you don't know my beliefs. That is obvious.
    Second, I have never read the Baptist Confession of Faith.
    Third, even if I did, there are many of them so I wouldn't know which one you would be referring to.
    There is nothing moral or immoral about the Sabbath. It is not part of the "moral law." Your statement is irrelevant. God never wrote the fourth command on man's hearts.
    I back up what I believe with the Word of God, not because of what others may or may not believe. It isn't a popularity contest.
     
    #131 DHK, Jul 19, 2013
  12. DrJamesAch

    DrJamesAch New Member

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    Considering that the Jewish calendar operates on a 360 day intervals, you violate ALL of the Sabbaths 52 times a year or more.

    And you missed my point entirely. You are attempting to use "laws" that were spoken of (but not commanded) BEFORE THE LAW, and yet you ignore all the other ones given also BEFORE THE LAW. Not only do you ignore them, as well as their specific provisions, but you don't keep them within the months that they were observed by according to the Jewish calendar.

    You sir, are not only a Sabbath breaker, a Passover breaker, but a law breaker as well (all 613 mitzvot).
     
    #132 DrJamesAch, Jul 19, 2013
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The Jewish calendar has 7 days in a week - every week. And the Sabbath is always on Saturday.

    Hint - those who observe Sunday as week-day-1 are essentially admitting to the same point.

    Again - you are mistaken.

    Abraham "kept my LAWS, Statutes and Commands" Gen 26:5.

    Gen 2:3 is the 4th commandment EVEN by Baptist Confession of Faith (And also Westminster Confession of Faith, and D.L. Moody's view, and R.C Sproul and ...) standards - it is not just me.

    And I think we both know that.

    And those documents spell out the difference between eternal "Moral law" and temporary "Ceremonial law" just as Paul does in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the COMMANDMENTS of God" in contrast to the ceremonial law.


    Let me guess - you are keeping the 1050 commands of the NT and the 613 of the OT - but have no clue about the ceremonial vs moral law principle admitted to by the Baptist Confession of Faith - and seen in 1Cor 17:19??

    Really?? That is what you want us to believe??

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #133 BobRyan, Jul 19, 2013
  14. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    What I believe is that it is disingenuous to pit the Old Testament against the New Testament. You bring up the ten commandments each in some detail, and at times, showing a gap between the Old Testament and New. The Bible is in perfect harmony from beginning to end. For example, the command to not commit adultery in the OT is presented as a physical act. In the NT, Christ expands that to sins of the mind and lust. There is no conflict. It shows all males have committed the sin, whether in deed or thought. It shows how deeply we need a Savior. Same could be said for murder vs hate, and for that matter, all commandments.

    It is pointless to memorize tons of commands and obey them in our own power. One, without the Holy Spirit in us, we will fail, and two, our righteousness without Christ is as filthy rags.

    You keep hammering on the Sabbath. Forget the day of the week for just one minute. (despite repeated verses I have given for Sunday worship). The OT says rest on the Sabbath. Christ said the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Christ's teachings put the command in a new light, and sharpens its meaning.

    In all of Christ's comments on the ten commandments, He shows how shallow and hypocritical the Pharisees are. You know, the gnat thing. This is the same group that was charged with keeping and preserving the Word of God at the time, and there was no more of a corrupt group on earth. They were rotten to the core in every aspect of life, from squinting their eyes to see who noticed them praying, to robbing the church treasury, to plotting to have the Son of God killed.

    Did Christ get mad at the run of the mill sinners in a visible way, like the prostitute or tax collector? No, He showed visible anger at the Pharisees and those trying to make a buck off His house of worship.
     
    #134 saturneptune, Jul 20, 2013
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    You listen too much to one another among you Baptists and too little heed the Law that judges and condemns EVERY TRANSGRESSOR of it even though he might think mercy elevated him above the Law of God or above transgression of it.

    What is more, since in JESUS CHRIST each and every and all Law from God to man APPLIES MORE THAN EVER TO ALL MEN AND CONDEMNS THEM ALL DEAD IN DEATH IN THEIR TRESPASSES AGAINST GOD, you pronounce one judgment upon yourself after the other every time you defend yourself and try justify yourself and your transgressions against the Law of God or its applicability IN CHRIST to and on yourself. For Christ "c(a)me a JUDGMENT"!
    But not for DHK o no!
    If one must believe DHK, Jesus saves the taunting challenger instead of the humble supplicant to God's Law and its condemnation.

    The Law applies to you—anyone—, the more you kick against its pricks. Calling on Christ’s mercies is calling on one’s guilt and sins against Christ’s mercies. Law and Mercy kiss one another. They appear as ONE in Him who is both the Anointed Law of God and Saviour of his People.

    One is saved a child of Israel of the tribe of Judah through The Seed; not as seeds of the many.
     
    #135 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 20, 2013
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

    Gerhard Ebersoehn Active Member
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    This is hallucination. There is no Sabbath as there is no Sabbath Commandment that forget the Day of the Commandment the Sabbath-Rest-DAY for a moment.

    This is hallucination just as your <<repeated verses (you) have given for Sunday worship>> is pure hallucination.

    This is hallucination just as your baseless statement <<The OT says rest on the Sabbath>>.

    It is whom you really mean instead, which, behind your senseless tirade against ostensibly the Pharisees, is hallucination.

    Not all Sabbatharians are stupid, and at least some of them, mean seriously and honestly to understand the Scriptures ---whereas seriously and dishonestly at least the knowledgeable Sunday opportunists try their luck with corrupt reduplication of Scripture and its meaning.
     
    #136 Gerhard Ebersoehn, Jul 20, 2013
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree. They are all the "Word of God".

    The NT authors refer to the OT NOT as "old testament" but rather as "Scripture" -- see 2Tim 3:16-17.

    As does the "Baptist Confession of Faith".

    As does D.L Moody.

    As does Andy Stanley.

    As does your own Biblicist here.

    As does C.H. Spurgeon.

    hint: NONE of those sources are SDA.


    Agreed - no conflict between OT and NT.

    As does the "Baptist Confession of Faith".

    As does D.L Moody.

    As does Andy Stanley.

    As does your own Biblicist here.

    As does C.H. Spurgeon.

    hint: NONE of those sources are SDA.

    I have never argued that in the OT "the Sabbath was not MADE for man but rather man MADE for the Sabbath".

    Instead BOTH are MADE in Genesis 1 and 2.

    The MAKING of BOTH is the subject of the 4th commandment in Ex 20:8-11.

    Your own Baptist Confession of Faith refers to the Sabbath - the seventh day Sabbath - MADE in Gen 2:3 calling it the "fourth commandment".

    In Mark 7:6-13 Christ flatly condemns them for trying to replace one of the Commandments of God with the traditions of man.

    In Andy Stanley's sermon on the TEN Commandments - he points out that breaking of the THIRD commandment includes the wild claim that God told you not to keep one of the TEN Commandments.

    However in general - I agree with your post above.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #137 BobRyan, Jul 20, 2013
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And 1050 for the NT. The link I gave you shows the Bible text for each - if you don't trust the Bible on that - you have the free will to go there. I am not one of those that will leap off of that cliff so quickly.

    On rare occasions here I say that I have the free will do choose this or that -- but far MORE Than that I say that OTHERS here have the free will to do this or that.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #138 BobRyan, Jul 20, 2013
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And there are 1050 commands in the NT.

    http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands

    What is the "liimit" after which we can throw the Word of God under the bus??

    Apparently for some it is 9 for others 10, for others 613...

    In the NT you have 1050 - see the texts themselves.

    ==================================
    Originally Posted by DHK [​IMG]
    And if you are gong to keep one you must keep them all.
    If you fail in one you have failed in them all.
    =====================================


    Is this the part where you are going to tell us that Christians can ignore the first 3 commandments since they have not kept them (or the 1050 other NT commands) perfectly?

    Have popcorn - am listening.

    ================================================
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DHK [​IMG]
    For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point he is guilty of breaking all. (James 2:10).
    Telling a lie is just as bad as murder. Both break the law.
    =====================================================

    Indeed - and so if we tell Christians that it is ok to lie and murder since they cannot keep the law perfectly - Christ said in Matt 5 - we are doing wrong.

    I think we all get that part.

    Recall in the text above it is not "do not kill" as a way to "earn your way to heaven".

    We all got that part as well - right?


    You are spinning the point - I did not accuse you of breaking anything. I said that in your argument you are assuming we will gladly throw out the TEN Commandments since we are too exhausted by the 613 commands of the OT - while you ignore the fact that we also have 1050 commands of the NT.

    Your argument is of the form "don't worry about that one or else you have to worry about 613" - I am simply pointing out that even in your own model - you are stuck with 1050 - not merely 613.



    Paul is talking about salvation by works.

    He is not talking about abolishing the Law of God.

    "Do we then abolish the Law of God by our faith? God forbid in fact we ESTABLISH The Law of God" Rom 3:31

    I too have said that the lost cannot "keep the 3rd commandment so well that they do not need salvation" the law is not a way to earn salvation. Even so - the 3th commandment is still binding on the saints - as even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" , (And I suspect even you) will admit.

    I am not a Baptist. The "Baptist Confession of Faith" is not an SDA document. Nor is C.H. Spurgeon an SDA nor do I agree with all he has ever said. Same goes for D.L. Moody and Andy Stanley.

    But they all get key points on this subject correct. So credit where credit is due.


    That is where your own opinion and the historic documents such as the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Baptist Confession of Faith etc differ.

    That is where your opinion and the Bible differ.

    That is where your opinion and D.L Moody and C.H. Spurgeon and R.C. Sproul differ.

    You are free to have your own opinion - you have free will.

    I happen to notice that they get that Bible doctrine right and that your view of it is not quite correct.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #139 BobRyan, Jul 20, 2013
  20. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Look, you don't have to quote "the 1050" to me any more. You are not convincing. I realize you are SDA. Perhaps you don't mind using sites that are J.W., Mormons, Jesus Only, Church of Satan, etc. But I don't. You quote so-called Bible information from the site of a cult. I have no reason to believe it. You can quote it all you want. Any information coming from a cult is suspect. Consider your source.
    They believe in baptismal regeneration, and also that tongues is needful for salvation. They are a cult.
    You have free will. If you want to throw away your Bible; throw it into the trash as you suggest, then that is up to you. There is no one here going to stop you. It just shows your contempt for the Word of God.
     
    #140 DHK, Jul 20, 2013
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