1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Double Double Toil and Trouble

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Nov 30, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28

    Brothers, will you each explain your view on predestination? I see it that God chose us from amongst the accursed in the world. The others were left in their fallen state through Adam's sin. But, God did not coerce or compulse Adam to do so.
     
    #121 convicted1, Dec 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2013
  2. Jacob_Elliott

    Jacob_Elliott New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2013
    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    2
    As long as you don't believe that God chose us because we first chose Him then I would completely agree, also I do not believe God coerced Adam to sin but it was part of His plan
     
  3. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    I love Him because He first loved me. And I agree that what Adam did was part of His plan, He seeing the last from the first.
     
  4. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    We are on the same page in the same book - the Bible
     
  5. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    I would be considered to be in the "sub" group of predestination......
     
  6. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    I as well. The potter's clay is already of fallen material as the vessels saved are called vessels of "mercy" and there is no need for "mercy" where there is not already JUST JUDGEMENT for sin. Election is "TO" salvation and NEVER in Scripture "TO" damnation as man is "condemned already." The very expression "election TO salvation" necessarily implies an unsaved condition, a fallen condition that needs salvation.

    The doctrine of reprobation is grounded upon the JUSTICE of God to do with fallen mankind as He chooses who are simply left to their own depraved desires, thus fitted to destruction by their own fallen nature.
     
  7. Jacob_Elliott

    Jacob_Elliott New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2013
    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    2
    I agree with that, but if He has chosen some for salvation, those left would automatically be chosen for punishment, as He has chosen not to save them, right?
     
  8. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  9. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28

    It depends upon which view you have, "supra" or "sub". They were already fallen, fitted for destruction. God, in His grace, love and mercy, chose the sheep from amongst those who were fallen, to give to the Lamb. The Lamb, in return, bore their sins on the cross, making their salvation a surety, and not a possibility......
     
  10. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    Look at it like this. In the "sub" or "infra" view, God saw all humanity lost in Adam. If He had chosen to, He could have withheld His Son, and everyone of us would have died lost. But, according to His plan, He had the Lamb prepared to be slain from the foundation of the world, to atone for His sheep, those He chose from the fallen race.
     
  11. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    No, because all were equally condemned JUSTLY and therefore there is no need to choose any for punishement. Election is an act of MERCY toward some who EQUALLY deserved the same justice. Moreover, the words "elect" and "chosen" and "election" in regard to the eternal state are NEVER used in regard to punishment.
     
  12. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
     
  13. Jacob_Elliott

    Jacob_Elliott New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2013
    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    2
    I really don't like that debate, at its foundation is the assumption God thinks as we do in a linear progression, one thought leading to another. Of course I don't know but if I were a betting man I would bet just about everything God's mind doesn't work like that. I couldn't imagine an omniscient infinite being would "think" like us.
    Edit: but I do agree with what your saying.
     
  14. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,314
    Likes Received:
    175
    But that view doesn't make sense to me. Going all the way back to kickball, I choose to keep some kids off the team if I don't choose them for the team. They aren't on the team before I don't choose them. But I still chose to not include them on the team, regardless of their current state of not already being on the team.
     
  15. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 13, 2011
    Messages:
    16,008
    Likes Received:
    481
    Ok, let me approach it from your angle. The fallen are all on the same team already and EQUALLY condemned due to choice to sin. God chooses some of the fallen to form another team. He does not have to choose the fallen to be on the team they are already on does he? He only has to choose those that form the new team. No choice is involved by God to form the first team as the choice to form the first team is the CHOICE TO SIN BY ALL OF ITS MEMBERS EQUALLY - THEIR CHOICE put them all on the first team. God's CHOICE forms another team.
     
    #135 The Biblicist, Dec 3, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2013
  16. Sapper Woody

    Sapper Woody Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,314
    Likes Received:
    175
    But by forming the other team and choosing who's on it, he'd be choosing to leave the others on the first team. He's still choosing for them by choosing to leave them in their current state. I'm not sure what I'm missing here.
     
  17. Jacob_Elliott

    Jacob_Elliott New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2013
    Messages:
    257
    Likes Received:
    2
    That's actually what I was thinking
     
  18. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"
     
  19. convicted1

    convicted1 Guest

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    9,012
    Likes Received:
    28
    Those on the first team were fallen in Adam. All of us were on that team. If God had chosen to, He could have left us there. But His plan was to place us on His team via Christ.
     
  20. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    You are not missing anything.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...