Featured The Heresy of Investigative Judgment

As this post shows ---
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2063588&postcount=134

The Bible clearly teaches a pre-advent investigative judgment in Daniel 7 and shows that this judgment begins after the dark ages - and the 1260 years of papal domination over the former pagan Roman empire.

Resorting to pulpit pounding as a substitute for sola scriptura testing and validation of this Bible doctrine is not the compelling solution that some have imagined.

Neither is it compelling to trash the Protestant reformation as if the reformers are to be equated with "Charles Taze Russel" - (your words).

in Christ,

Bob

 

This post is "of the dark ages," a speculative SDA and EGW but dogmatic and opinionated interpretation. You have not a leg to stand on.

Resorting to pulpit pounding as a complete substitute for the Scriptures is what this post of Bob's is all about. Not one Scripture has he posted. It is all "This is the teaching..." But he gives no evidence. Of course; he has none. A female false prophetess is no evidence at all.

Charles Taze Russell, EGW, Joseph Smith--all the same, right?
They all stand outside the realm of orthodox Christianity and always have.

 

You can see the same thing as what was posted in my previous post above - just by paying attention to the highlights here "in the text".

The pre-advent Judgment of Dan 7 - based on

investigating the records/books of heaven.

Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

...

Christ takes part in the Judgment - it is the judgment seat of Christ

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
...

Saints are included as subjects of the Judgment (We must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ)
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.


11th horn - dominates for 1260 years (starting shortly after the fall of the pagan Roman empire)
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Judgment takes place after the 1260 years (3.5 years of apocalyptic prophetic time - day for year rule)

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.


SECOND Coming

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.

You are one of the few people on this board that respond to a post of scripture in that fashion.

Are you sure you want to keep making that mistake?

in Christ,

Bob

 

I never made that mistake. Your allegation is absolutely false.
Stop with the deceit.
Here is what I responded to:

There is no scripture there. It is speculative opinionated unsubstantiated nonsense. There is no honest exegesis of scripture here.

 

that is very bad interpretation of the prophetic scriptures, no doubt the errors espoused by false prophetess herself!

 

no Bible in that response. (i.e. no substance in simply complaining or raising false accusation)

By contrast we have --

nvestigating the records/books of heaven.

Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

...

Christ takes part in the Judgment - it is the judgment seat of Christ

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.
...

Saints are included as subjects of the Judgment (We must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ)
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.


11th horn - dominates for 1260 years (starting shortly after the fall of the pagan Roman empire)
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.


Judgment takes place after the 1260 years (3.5 years of apocalyptic prophetic time - day for year rule)

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.


SECOND Coming

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him.

 

The accusation is the same copy and paste that we all have read dozens of times. It is speculation, not Bible exposition, or exegesis. It is foolish imaginative speculation based on EGW musings. The following is simply the quoting of Scripture with commentary by a cult figure. Why should anyone accept it??

There is no investigation of books. Your inference dictates that there are; that is not what the Bible teaches.

Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened. [/quote]
The books were opened. So? No investigation took place. Imaginative, but not true!

False again. This is not what this passage is talking of. This the overburdened imagination of EGW whom you follow instead of looking at Scripture with an objective mind.

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

--Note: His Kingdom will not be destroyed.
That is not judgement, but blessing. That speaks of blessing, the Millennial Kingdom when the Jews will receive Christ as their Messiah, when Christ will sit on the Throne of David when there will truly be "peace on earth and good will toward men." As it says "His dominion is an everlasting dominion." This is not judgment. The question is: Will you be there? How do you know?

Saints are included as subjects of the Judgment (We must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ)
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. [/quote]
The saints refer to the believing Jews, not to Christians. Christians have been raptured. The Jews have just accepted the Messiah as their King. The context is obvious here which you are conveniently ignoring. The nation of Israel had been set aside, which had begun with Nebuchadnezzar.
The little horn is a person, a king (vs.24), who persecutes Israel (vs.25). He will bring Israel under his authority(12:13-17: 17:7), and then will finally be judged by God himself (19:19-20).

Absolute nonsense. There is no 1260 years mentioned. This is your blind following of EGW. The following events are still future.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Judgment takes place after the 1260 years (3.5 years of apocalyptic prophetic time - day for year rule)[/quote]
Three and a half years of the Great Tribulation which precedes the Millennial Kingdom, at the end of which Israel will turn to Christ, and Christ's enemies will be defeated. There is no investigative judgement.

This judgment is the judgment of the enemies of Israel when Christ comes again and defeats her enemies, and then sets up His Kingdom.

Daniel is speaking to the Jews. The believing Jews are the saints. Christ comes for the believing Jews. They will enter into the Millennial Kingdom. The believers are mentioned in Revelation 19 who will come with Christ. They are already in heaven.

Your interpretation is based on a false premise and lands on a false premise. But what would you expect when you base it on the followings of a false teacher? It has nothing to do with Bible exposition, only vain imaginations.

 

The books were opened. So? No investigation took place. Imaginative, but not true!

False again. This is not what this passage is talking of. This the overburdened imagination of EGW whom you follow instead of looking at Scripture with an objective mind.

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

--Note: His Kingdom will not be destroyed.
That is not judgement, but blessing. That speaks of blessing, the Millennial Kingdom when the Jews will receive Christ as their Messiah, when Christ will sit on the Throne of David when there will truly be "peace on earth and good will toward men." As it says "His dominion is an everlasting dominion." This is not judgment. The question is: Will you be there? How do you know?

Saints are included as subjects of the Judgment (We must ALL stand before the Judgment seat of Christ)
21 I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. [/quote]
The saints refer to the believing Jews, not to Christians. Christians have been raptured. The Jews have just accepted the Messiah as their King. The context is obvious here which you are conveniently ignoring. The nation of Israel had been set aside, which had begun with Nebuchadnezzar.
The little horn is a person, a king (vs.24), who persecutes Israel (vs.25). He will bring Israel under his authority(12:13-17: 17:7), and then will finally be judged by God himself (19:19-20).

Absolute nonsense. There is no 1260 years mentioned. This is your blind following of EGW. The following events are still future.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Judgment takes place after the 1260 years (3.5 years of apocalyptic prophetic time - day for year rule)[/quote]
Three and a half years of the Great Tribulation which precedes the Millennial Kingdom, at the end of which Israel will turn to Christ, and Christ's enemies will be defeated. There is no investigative judgement.

This judgment is the judgment of the enemies of Israel when Christ comes again and defeats her enemies, and then sets up His Kingdom.

Daniel is speaking to the Jews. The believing Jews are the saints. Christ comes for the believing Jews. They will enter into the Millennial Kingdom. The believers are mentioned in Revelation 19 who will come with Christ. They are already in heaven.

Your interpretation is based on a false premise and lands on a false premise. But what would you expect when you base it on the followings of a false teacher? It has nothing to do with Bible exposition, only vain imaginations.[/QUOTE]

BOB fits classic cultists pattern, as he just keeps parroting what his cult leader/prophetess espouses!

Thank God that those of us now in Chrsit jesus have already passed that "investigative judgement," as God found us in jesus, and translated from kingdom of Satan into one of His Son!

 

Heresy cannot be left to stand. It must be refuted. If not, then all who come here to read will be taught by false teachers. This is not an open forum for false teachers to to evangelize or spread their doctrine. Thus it always must be refuted. It is not a simple matter of debate; it is one of declaring the truth of the Word and rebuking error.

 

SDA are works based salvation, as how strict one keeps the sabbath day as saturday, and how well heeded Ellen White determines if one keeps/forfeits eternal life!

 

Y1 complained that the following accurate review of Daniel 7 did not agree with him.

Not even remotely true.

And your reference to the Protestant reformers as equivalent to "Charles Taze Russell" says it all in that regard.

You make it difficult to take you seriously.

By contrast "the actual Bible says" -

Dan 7:10
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

This is in complete harmony with the way that John describes judgment in the NT - based on things written in the books of heaven.

Rev 20:12

• New American Standard Bible
  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
• King James Version
  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

• Holman Christian Standard Bible
  I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.

• New King James Version
  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

How sad that your man-made tradition requires that you provide post after post in direct contradiction to the clear teaching of the Bible on the subject of the judgment.




Dan 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

DHK at some point you may want to just throw away that shovel and stop digging that whole deeper.

The judgment in Dan 7 takes place after the division of pagan Rome into Ten kingdoms in vs 7-8 (the fourth empire in the Dan 7 list of empires) this does not take place until centuries after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

It also takes place after 1260 years of the dark ages - which is also long after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

obvious to all I suppose - but in this discussion i am left to state the obvious.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Look well to your own history. You, the SDA and Charles Taze Russell have much in common--far more than you and the Reformers do.

It doesn't refute what I have already explained to you. But you didn't touch that/couldn't touch that. You can't actually refute the Bible itself can you Bob. You can do what the typical J.W. does. Just jump from one passage to another without dealing seriously with one passage.
How sad that your man-made tradition requires that you provide post after post in direct contradiction to the clear teaching of the Bible on the subject of the judgment.

Is that how you treat the exposition of Scripture--dirt and shovel thrown away? Sad!

Which SDA Pope proclaimed this, and when did it become official dogma?
Why should I believe your wild speculations? Give me a good reason.

Pure speculation. Do you believe in the Assumption of Mary as well?
Which SDA Pope made this dogma. Can you point to it. It is not in Scripture. Perhaps it is in existentialism. New Age theory maybe? I don't know where you are getting this gnostic mysticism from. But it isn't from the Bible.

Obvious to EGW maybe, but not obvious to those who take the Bible seriously.

 

==============================

By contrast "the actual Bible says" -

Dan 7:10
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

This is in complete harmony with the way that John describes judgment in the NT - based on things written in the books of heaven.

Rev 20:12

• New American Standard Bible
  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
• King James Version
  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

• Holman Christian Standard Bible
  I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.

• New King James Version
  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

You cannot add a nonsensical argument as the response to the Bible texts above that refute your claim above.

Why keep doing that?

Who is supposed to be snookered by such a response?

Deal with the Bible details listed and quit "circling b ack to J.W.'s" as if the J.W. rant will be your escape for every Bible challenge to your man-made traditions.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

 

If you are interested in Bible details demonstrate it. Instead of just copy and pasting the same rant post after post, why not give some consideration to what has already been posted:
I will not re-post everything I have written.

It is here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2065997&postcount=148

Can you give an intelligent response.

 

==============================


By contrast "the actual Bible says" -

Dan 7:10
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

This is in complete harmony with the way that John describes judgment in the NT - based on things written in the books of heaven.

Rev 20:12

• New American Standard Bible
  And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
• King James Version
  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

• Holman Christian Standard Bible
  I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.

• New King James Version
  And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

You cannot add a nonsensical argument as the response to the Bible texts above that refute your claim above.

Why keep doing that?

Who is supposed to be snookered by such a response?

Deal with the Bible details listed and quit "circling b ack to J.W.'s" as if the J.W. rant will be your escape for every Bible challenge to your man-made traditions.

Details matter.

I just did - you simply made stuff up in direct contradiction to scripture - then I post the scripture showing your contradiction of it.

This is the easy part.


I am certain you can you give an intelligent response if you just stop and look at the text for half a second.

in Christ,

Bob