Featured Carnal or Lost

In every chapter he was speaking to the church "en masse."
They had two major problems. One was caused by listening to false teachers. And the other was the divisiveness among them.
Both of these problems entered into their carnality. Most of them were carnal.
First because they had not grown in the Word--largely due to false teachers.
Secondly, they were divisive. That also contributed to their carnality.

Some time ago in this thread I quoted from Barnes, Jamieson, Faucett and Brown, and then from Matthew Henry. Go back and read their comments on 1Cor.3:1. Every one of them agree with me. They also agree that the above two reasons were the cause of their carnality.

The consequences of this carnality is laid out in the following chapters which he addresses one by one: immorality, taking one another to court, marriage problems, idolatry, abuse of the Lord's Table, abuse of the gifts of the Spirit, and even a denial of the resurrection.

 

Complete error. No Christian is sold under sin, and no Christian is under captivity to the law of sin.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Romans 7 is Paul speaking of himself before conversion. In verse 9 he shows when he learned the law he spiritually died. He now is sold under sin in vs. 14. He has now been brought into captivity to the law of sin and death. This is not describing any Christian, Paul repeatedly tells us a Christian has been made FREE from sin and the law of sin and death.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

A Christian is dead unto sin, he does not belong to sin any more.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

A Christian is not sold under sin, they are "free" from sin.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Again, Christians are now free from sin.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Note, the law of "the Spirit" has made us free from the law of sin and death Paul spoke about in Rom 7:23.

Note that Paul NEVER mentions the Holy Spirit in chapter 7, NOT ONCE.

Paul is describing himself before he was saved in Romans chapter 7, when he was sold under sin and in captivity to the law of sin. No born again Christian is sold under sin or a captive of sin.

You have fallen for the false Calvinist interpretation of Romans 7. Complete error.

 

You deny the depravity of man and infer that there is no old nature.
If that were true man would be like Christ having no old nature, and no cause to sin, no propensity to sin. He would have a perfect nature.
But he doesn't.
That is why you get so frustrated at times on this board and often post things that you shouldn't (like many others).

 

I am not going to argue with you, if you believe a Christian is "sold under sin" and brought "into captivity to the law of sin" I don't know what to tell you.

The Calvinists are the ones who want folks to believe this is a saved person, because Paul said he wanted to do good, he willed to do good, and he delighted in the law of God. This would utterly refute their false doctrine of Total Inability, so they have taught this was a regenerated person. Absurd.

But again, no Christian is sold under sin or captive to sin, we have been made completely free from sin. And as I pointed out, Paul NEVER mentions the Holy Spirit in this chapter, NOT ONCE.

Believe whatever you want to believe.

 

In chapter 7 of Romans Paul is NOT speaking of himself while saved. Look at the passage. He says "I am carnal sold under sin."
The present tense shows that he is not speaking about himself as a believer. A believer is not sold under sin. We are saved under grace.
What Paul is doing is trying to show the battle the religious lost have compaired to the freedom of Christ.
At no time is Paul saying that he is carnal and losing the battle with sin or sinning at all. Here is why. In Phil 3:3-6 Paul writes the following to deal with those who think they can rely on the flesh to save them; Paul gives his pedigree.


For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

Notice the last verse. He says concerning the law he was blameless. In other words Paul kept the law. So if while lost Paul was blameless under the law he does not become carnal under salvation. In fact his salvation would enhance his ability to keep the commands since he now has the Spirit.

No believer has two natures. I regret to say, but do say with respect that such a teaching is simply a way to deny full responsibility for our sin. It is an excuse when the truth is we sin because we choose to sin, not because of some nature.

So no believe can be carnal. This is why no one is ever called carnal who is saved. Calling a church carnal is a different matter and that can happen, in fact most churches today are carnal.

 

Actually Judith, Paul is speaking of himself, he is describing himself before he was saved. In vss. 7-13 he tells us when he learned the law. When he learned the law as all young Jewish men do, he was convicted as a sinner and spiritually died.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

As you see, Paul is talking about himself. Now he is sold under sin.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The moment we sin, we sell ourselves to sin like a slave in the ancient market. Now sin (personified) is our master and owns us. We are his property, and sin's wage is DEATH (spiritual).

Paul in his mind and spirit loved the law, he wanted to keep the law, he delighted in the law, but he could not. He had sinned and now he belonged to sin. No amount of good works can change that. He was now "brought into captivity to the law of sin" in his members.

Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

But you are correct, Romans 7:14-25 is not speaking of a saved person, but Paul before he was saved, he was sold under sin and a captive to sin.

Christians have been made free from sin and the law of sin.

 

Paul is speaking of Himself as a Christian in Romans 7....very clearly...

He describes the struggle to mortify remaining corruption.....which he expands in chapter 8

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
the unsaved do not delight in the law of God...in the inward man.

 

False. Utterly false. Paul said he was sold under sin in vs. 14, he says he was "captive to the law of sin" in vs. 23. No Christian is sold under sin, we have been bought and redeemed from sin by the blood of Jesus. No Christian is captive to the law of sin.

Your Calvinist interpretation is PURE error.

 

JamesL

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God makes someone a Calvinist as it is his truth as revealed in scripture and revealed to the church.
I believed these things before I heard of ,or got to know any of these men.

I did not know the terms theologically...but reading eph1 was very clear, understanding jn 6,8,10,17...made it a lock.

I am not in a ditch at all, but rather rejoice in the absolute control God has over everything that comes to pass.....open a new thread if you want to explore this further.

Where ever you were....it was not "there"

 

Thank you for confirming what I said...any view you post ...the opposite is true 99 out of 100 times:wavey::thumbs::laugh:

 

It is quite easy to see why Calvinists must believe Rom 7:14-25 is speaking of a regenerate person, otherwise Calvinism is proved false.

Nevertheless, no Christian is "sold under sin" as Paul said in vs. 14, and no Christian is in "captivity to the law of sin" in vs. 23.

Only a Calvinist would claim a Christian is a slave to sin. :laugh:

 

Winman

Here is what I did teach in this thread despite your false statement;
He is identifying them as brethren.....and yet he is rebuking them in that in their fighting over which teacher they prefer...in this one sin....they are acting as......mere men....acting as if they did not have the Spirit...acting fleshly...

he does not say they are unsaved, mere men....he says they are acting as if they were unsaved...it is a rebuke, not a description of who they are....

Yes winman...I posted that in post 104:laugh::laugh:

So your statement here was a prophecy explaining why you cannot comprehend what you read:laugh: That and your anti-cal agenda have brought you down once again...

 

I would take the time to explain it to you...but you will mis-read it...with no comprehension as you just did:laugh::laugh::thumbs:

 

Oh, I am sure it would take a novel of double-talk, but it wouldn't fool me, as I go by what the Bible says, not your so-called "scholars".

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christians are dead unto sin. Paul had explained that a wife was free from her husband if he died, and she was free to marry again. Likewise, when we trust Jesus we are baptized into his body and died with him on the cross to sin. Sin no longer has a hold over us, we are free from sin.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Christians are no longer servants to sin, we have been made free from sin.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Again, Christians are now free from sin.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Once again, Paul tells us we have been made free from the law of sin.

If you want to believe a bunch of Calvinist double-talk, that is your choice, but the scriptures are abundantly clear that Christians have been made free from sin. Therefore Romans 7:14-25 cannot be describing a born again Christian.

Find some naive person who does not know the scriptures, maybe they will listen to your double-talk.

 

Winman;

:laugh: They just have to keep reading your posts:laugh:

They are re-examining their positions as we speak:wavey:

reading comprehension indeed:laugh:

 

I am not afraid for people to read my posts, but you seem to be.

 

You talk of comprehension. See how confused you are.
The word is "reckon," not "are."
Reckon or consider yourselves dead unto sin. That doesn't mean you are dead to sin. It is a goal. To consider to do something is by no means an accomplished fact. I will consider mowing the lawn doesn't mean that the lawn is mowed. Far from it! Or, to a friend you might with great intention say: "Consider your lawn mowed." But that doesn't mean it is. Only the intention is there.
With great intent you must consider yourself or try to be dead to sin. That doesn't mean you are. It is a daily effort. That is why Paul said (1Cor.15:31), "I die daily." It wasn't automatic. Every day he put his body to death.
Jesus said the same thing:
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
--Every day take up your cross; every day die to self. It is not automatic.
You are just plain wrong on this.

If sin didn't have hold over you, you wouldn't post some of the things that you do, would you? You give into your carnal nature. You sin. You have the propensity to sin. You can't live without your sin. You enjoy it.
When a person insults you, you enjoy insulting them back. Why? It is in your nature to do so--your carnal, sinful, fleshly nature; the one you inherited from Adam.

 

OK, so explain away the other three verses I showed that directly said we have been made free from sin.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Pathetic.

 

It is pathetic that you insist on isolating Scripture and taking them out of context. What is the context of 6:22 for example:

Romans 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

You are only dead to sin as you yield yourself to righteousness or holiness. It is a daily duty or action, as I already explained to you. Paul continues to teach the same thing throughout the entire chapter. Why don't you read the entire chapter. Don't isolate verses.

Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
--Servants obey and yield to their masters, in this case sin.

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
--But now if the believer sins what happens? He feels ashamed. He still sins when he is carnal. But he is ashamed of his sin. The wages of sin is death.

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
--The cross set us free positionally. We are now the servants of sin. Do servants disobey? Yes. We are not perfect.
You, on the one hand, are the first one to admit there are carnal Christians. Why are you denying that now? You sin. You are not perfect. You have a carnal nature according to 1Cor.3:1-4. We "reckon" ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but it is a daily "reckoning." It is not automatic. Christ is our master; we are his servants, but not a one of us is perfect.

Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

No context again:
The context is the last verse of chapter 7:
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--There are two natures: one that serves the law of God and one the serves the law of sin. Which law do you serve?

Paul makes a declaration, a personal declaration of who he chooses to serve. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me (Paul) free from the law of sin and death.
Maybe that is not true with you. Maybe, according to 7:25, you have chosen to serve with your flesh the law of sin instead. It is possible. It is possible to be a carnal Christian. It is possible to avoid submitting your mind to the law of God. Paul said that he did, that doesn't mean you have made the same choice.

The choice was made on the basis of putting the body to death, and doing it on a daily basis. The choice was made on the basis of using the mind to submit to the law of God, and that is an active choice. It means to deliberately use the mind to submit to Christ. It is not automatic. It is a conquering of the flesh.

 

What a bunch of baloney, you completely avoid the issue. No Christian is captive to the law of sin and death, otherwise we would go to hell when we die.

No Christian is sold under sin, we have been bought with the blood of Jesus and now belong to him.

1 Cor 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Total nonsense.

Romans 6 is showing what it means to be a servant of sin. It does not mean we cannot do right. In fact, in vs. 17 we are told that Romans who were servants to sin have obeyed the gospel. When they obeyed the gospel they were made free from sin, and became servants of righteousness.

So, this is not speaking of our nature, it is not saying we are compelled to sin by a sin nature as you falsely interpret. It is saying we BELONG to sin, we are like a slave who was purchased in the market.

But once we trust Christ we die to sin, and are raised with Jesus. Now we belong to him, he is our new master. We are no longer captive to sin and death.

You and others simply cannot grasp this. In this respect you are just as much a Calvinist as Iconoclast.

No Christian is sold under sin. No Christian is captive to the law of sin and death.

You simply do not understand scripture.