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Featured Are all of God's Ten Commandments still valid?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Dec 24, 2014.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Do you hold to the truth of the Investigative Judgement, and that one who worships on Sunday will have received the mark of the beast, as your prophetess herself stated then?

    For if we are obligated to keep a part of the law of isreal, God commands us to keep all of them, so have you been found able to do that in your own walk with God then?

    or is it the truth that none of us can keep the Commandments as God requires to merit favor, and so its by grace alone thru Faith alone ?
     
    #121 Yeshua1, Jan 6, 2015
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Is it your claim that the majority of even pro-Sunday scholarship are all SDA for daring to admit to the Bible details in the first 6 points of the list in the OP.

    if so what logic did you use to come to that conclusion?

    Recall that the points are numbered for you to help you not lose track of the details.

    And a sample list of the pro-sunday sources affirming all 7 of those points is given numerous times with not a single substantive objection that holds up - against that list being the actual views of those pro-sunday groups.

    Again --


    But the fact that the Ten Commandments are indeed the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant is sooo glaringly obvious that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship can see it.

    They freely admit to the Bible fact that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are valid even while the ceremonial laws are fulfilled and ended after the cross.

    "Baptist Confession of Faith"
    "Westminster Confession of Faith"
    C.H. Spurgeon
    Andy Stanley
    Matthew Henry
    [FONT=&quot]Jamieson, Fausset, Brown[/FONT]
    R.C Sproul
    "D.L. Moody"
    "Dies Domini"

    How is it then that the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship has figured out this same Bible detail that the pro-Saturday Sabbath Christians have figured out?

    It is because the use of the Ten Commandments in both OT and NT indicate that it is the moral law of God - written on the heart under the New Covenant, the one Gospel.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #122 BobRyan, Jan 6, 2015
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  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So far we have three horribly flawed opposing views posted.

    1. Pretend that the list of pro-sunday groups do not claim they affirm all 7 points listed in the OP, when we all know that they do affirm them.

    Claim that only SDAs affirm those Bible points - and the pro-Sunday group does not exist. Even though SDAs affirm only 6 of the 7 and the pro-sunday groups listed are the ones affirming all 7.

    2. Claim that the texts in the OP are not related to this topic even though no detail response shows that to be at all true.

    3. Try to change the subject entirely to something like the Investigative Judgment - so the irrefutable points listed in the OP can be set aside for a minute using diversionary tactics.

    And of course the obligatory "tons of vitriol"

    New Years resolution folks -- gotta try and up that game a bit.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #123 BobRyan, Jan 6, 2015
  4. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Where is the vitriol? Where is the name-calling? Where have I said anything that I shouldn't have said. Stop the false allegations.
    The NT has no command.
    Here is a good link, one of many that I can give you:
    http://www.truthorfables.com/SDA_Cult.htm
    We all know of the cultic teachings of the SDA. Let's be honest.
    Here is another link you should read.
    http://carm.org/religious-movements...s-carm-recommend-seventh-day-adventist-church
    I opposed each and every one of those because:
    1. You related them to the SDA movement when they are not.
    2. You relate Sunday to the Sabbath when it is not.
    3. It is obvious you have evil intentions when you deliberately do things like this in a deceptive manner by deliberately changing the intent and purpose of what men have already written.
    --That is not "vitriol." It is truth.


    It is not common ground. When the definitions are different between Christians and SDA there is nothing in common.

    Refutation: The sabbath was not commanded.
    Refutation: The Sabbath was a command given to Israel, and the nation of Israel was the only nation ever commanded to keep it.
    The Sabbath has always been Saturday and has never changed.
    The Apostles began worshiping on the first day of the week. But that is not the Sabbath.
    The Sabbath is not part of the moral law of God; there is nothing moral or immoral about keeping or not keeping the Sabbath.
    But the Sabbath was not one of those commands, and that can be easily demonstrated.
    Keeping the Sabbath is opposed to the Gospel according to Gal.3:10 and James 2:10. If you keep the Sabbath, then start keeping the rest of the 613 OT laws. You are not consistent.
    I don't BEND scripture. This, Scripture then applies to you:
    2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
    --You "bend" or "wrest" the Scriptures to your own liking. How does the Bible describe you here, and what warning does it give you?
    You agree because you belong to the cult of the SDA, and that is the only reason. That cult needs to be exposed.
     
    #124 DHK, Jan 6, 2015
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You can't stop the vitriol even while in the middle of a claim to not use it.

    WoW!



    The OP predicts that DHK will be at war with all 7 of the points held by the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship.



    And of course the nonsensical claim that pro-Sunday sources would only admit to those points - (6 of which are actually in the Bible) if they were somehow SDA.

    When in fact that actual point in the OP is that these bible details are soooo glaringly obvious that even the pro-sunday scholars who are nothing at all in the camp of SDA's - get the point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #125 BobRyan, Jan 6, 2015
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  6. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What vitriol? If the truth hurts you need to change. I provided links to demonstrate that the SDA movement is a cult. Is that what you are offended by? I am not sure. You simply accuse me of vitriol without saying why? I can take that as a false accusation without evidence in hand.
    No Baptist will agree with you because no Baptist defines these points as you do. That is plain for all to see. We are not of the SDA cult--plain and simple.
    When the "SDA bent" is put on them, there is a major disagreement. Case closed.
    All scholars distance themselves from the SDA movement, something that doesn't dawn on you.
     
    #126 DHK, Jan 6, 2015
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    At which point DHK tries out a totally debunked bit of fiction



    already debunked here -

    having had the flaw in your false accusation exposed - you seem to have no choice but to resort to "repeating it" no matter how nonsensical your idea that my opposition to their point 7 -- is some odd way of endorsing them on that point!

    how transparently flawed.

    How helpful to the readers.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #127 BobRyan, Jan 6, 2015
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    And now for some actual fact to go with that fiction.

    The very subjects DHK is most at war against - Spurgeon addresses in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"
     
    #128 BobRyan, Jan 6, 2015
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  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The "Christian Sabbath" as described and understood by these old time Baptists and confessions is not the Sabbath described by either the SDA or the Bible. Nor is it worshiped the same way in which the Bible prescribes. Herein is your deceit.
    They do not "keep the Sabbath," according to the law of God.
    No Gentile does. You hypocritically say you do, but you don't.
     
    #129 DHK, Jan 6, 2015
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.


    1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
    2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
    3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
    4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
    5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
    6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
    7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

    I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

    When I look around on this board to find someone who will bravely agree with me in opposing the 7th point they affirm in the list above --what an unexpected surprise to find


    Hmm -- Another voice on this thread that also objects to the 7ith point in that list rather than claiming it as "his own".

    How nice to find some agreement here.

    So then they "bent the Sabbath" from the 7th day of the week in the OT - to week-day-1 in the NT - and low and behold "I object" -- not too surprising since I am a Bible believing SDA on the subject of the Sabbath of the Bible.

    But to find such handy objection by DHK on that very same point --well... what a nice thing to have DHK agree at least to some extent.

    Let's look "more closely" at what they say in their Bible-bending 7th point that is sooo objectionable to us.

    Point 7 -- in living color -- reminds us of Mark 7:6-13. They do not claim the Sabbath Commandment has been abolished they claim that keeping it as God said in Ex 20 (instead of as man-made tradition says -- as in Catholicism) -- was abolished.

    [FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished. [/FONT]


    We SDAs don't particularly like that 7th point of theirs. That is why we say we only agree with 6 of their seven main points on this subject.


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #130 BobRyan, Jan 6, 2015
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  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Bob, this is from Spurgeon's Confession of Faith. It is not mine. He is a Calvinist; I am not. Why would you expect me to agree with it. That is your first fallacy.
    Secondly, there is only one point I can see that I would agree, and that only if it is pre-conditioned.

    5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
    --The moral law is not equivalent to the Ten Commandments as previously defined. It does not include the Sabbath Day. There is nothing moral about keeping a ceremonial Jewish day.
    Laws are not bent! They are either obeyed or disobeyed. Spurgeon does not keep the Sabbath. He is trying to say in polite terms that he doesn't keep the Sabbath. Plain and simple. He is not a Jew. The Sabbath was made for the Jew. Read Exodus 31.
    There is none.
    You do NOT "bend" scripture. One either keeps it or they don't. They don't keep it, and neither do you. How many of the offerings do you make?
    We don't agree on any of the points. You belong to the SDA, a cult. We have nothing in common.
     
    #131 DHK, Jan 6, 2015
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  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I never place you in the class of Spurgeon. I think we all knew that by now.

    except for this -- where you object to their point 7 - as I do.

    thus you will need something above the low level of vitriol and name calling - if you are trying to distinguish your rejection of their point 7 from mine. I think we all knew that.


    Here is where we all see your dilemma -

    1. notice that you know they are wrong in point 7
    2. you also know that if you accept all of their 6 points and also the fact that they are wrong in point 7 - then you have the bible position - mine. And currently you prefer man-made tradition to that option in true Mark 7:6-13 manner.

    3. you abolish God's commandments by denying the first 6 obvious points in the Bible that even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship accepts.

    4. They try to abolish the Sabbath by accepting the 6 obvious points from the Bible - but then inventing a flawed 7th idea that even you know - is wrong.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #132 BobRyan, Jan 7, 2015
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  13. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't agree with any of the points, not even #7. With the 7th point they still have a Sabbath. The only Sabbath that the Gentile believer has today is Christ Himself. We are not bound by the law to worship on any specific day. Christians are not bound by God's ceremonial law.
    When will you start keeping the other 613 laws of the OT?
     
    #133 DHK, Jan 7, 2015
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    DHK you have boxed yourself in a corner.

    You reject the obvious 6 Bible based points of the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship -- so you can't join them in that regard.

    And we all know that I reject their 7th point - and you object to it as well.

    So that means you join in with the SDA view on 1 of the 7 points. But you oppose the pro-Sunday scholarship view on all 7 points where they affirm them.

    Now far be it from me to say you are SDA - but once you commit to the vitriol and name-calling solution you have been trying out here - then come up opposing the pro-Sunday scholars on all 7 points and yet only opposing the Biblically correct SDA view on 6 of the 7 points -- you have to do some soul searching.

    Let's look at the 7th point

    Let's look "more closely" at what they say in their Bible-bending 7th point that is sooo objectionable to us.

    Point 7 -- in living color -- reminds us of Mark 7:6-13. They do not claim the Sabbath Commandment has been abolished they claim that keeping it as God said in Ex 20 (instead of as man-made tradition says -- as in Catholicism) -- was abolished.

    [FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished. [/FONT]

    They have a "perpetual" Sabbath Commandment from the OT that they say "is changed to the first day of the week" in the NT...

    Sad to say it DHK - but I think they are wrong in making that claim to be able to edit the Word of God - indeed a perpetual Commandment of God by their own confession. When man starts thinking he can "change" God's Word - he has started down a very wrong road.

    And now here you come along also opposing them on these "details" in their 7th point.

    How "surprising" DHK.
     
    #134 BobRyan, Jan 7, 2015
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  15. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No, Bob, I don't agree with you, and I don't agree with them. Your deceitfulness is trying to make them look like they agree with you when they actually don't. They redefine the word "sabbath," and you won't admit that.
    They don't bend anything.

    Their view is a "Christian Sabbath," which was the culture of that day.
    I refuse to call Sunday "the Christian Sabbath," which was what they named it. It is not the Sabbath of any kind. The Sabbath does not exist for the Christian at all except for our "rest in Christ." Christ is our Sabbath.

    Your loyalty to the Sabbath Day puts you under the law. When will you start keeping the 613 of the OT laws?
     
    #135 DHK, Jan 7, 2015
  16. Getting it Right

    Getting it Right Member
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    In my humble opinion it is better left at that. Dragging this debate on for thousands of posts is not productive.

    I'm voting now: DHK wins.

    :wavey:
     
    #136 Getting it Right, Jan 7, 2015
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Sadly the "details" do not agree. And even you failed to show that your opposition to the 7 points is at all like me -- since I AFFIRM their first 6 points at the very point that you are at war them them.

    I can agree that your vitriol and name calling is not at all like them and not like me -- so in that you are ... DHk alone.

    But other than that -- you admit to opposing their 7th point - and so do I.


    They say the 4th commandment Sabbath of the OT is "perpetual" but that they "changed the day" at the cross.

    We both know that is what they say.

    We all know it.

    [FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages to this effect. He has particularly appointed one day in seven for a Sabbath to be kept holy for Him. From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ this was the last day of the week, and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day. This is to be continued until the end of the world as the Christian Sabbath, the observation of the last day of the week having been abolished.

    [FONT=&quot]Notice the "details"

    [FONT=&quot]1[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages

    [FONT=&quot]Perpetual Commandment.

    [FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day.

    [FONT=&quot]Sadly the very two points you i[FONT=&quot]nsist they D[FONT=&quot]ON'[FONT=&quot]T say ... well.. they "do".

    [FONT=&quot]The result is that I can [FONT=&quot]quote THEM to make my case about what THEY say in point [FONT=&quot]7... you cannot.

    [FONT=&quot]in [FONT=&quot]Christ,

    [FONT=&quot]Bob[/FONT]
    [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
     
    #137 BobRyan, Jan 7, 2015
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    What details?
    I don't agree with their interpretation.
    I don't agree with your interpretation.
    I don't agree with your interpretation of them.
    What details? What can't you understand Bob?
    Why do you have to resort to men? Is it because you know you will be defeated in the scriptures. When will you start obeying the other 613 OT commands? You are not consistent.

    But it is not called the Sabbath. And it is not a perpetual covenant.
    Why? Do you want me to lie? No, Bob, I am not going to lie just for you.

    No you can't. No you haven't made your case. You haven't made any case at all. The SDA is a cult, and their case is that they are under the law, doomed under the law without Christ and without salvation. The law cannot save.
     
    #138 DHK, Jan 7, 2015
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Notice what "name" D.L. Moody gives to the 4th commandment??

    Hint: The same name God gives it in Ex 20.

    This is pretty easy - the A, B, C's of Bible reading.

    You are certainly welcome to your own world - but for those of us dealing with the facts we find in the Bible and reporting accurately what even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship admits regarding those simple Bible details -- well we have to deal with reality.

    [FONT=&quot]

    [FONT=&quot]Notice the "details"

    [FONT=&quot]1[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]As it is the law of nature that in general a proportion of time, by God's appointment, should be set apart for the worship of God, so He has given in His Word a positive, moral and perpetual commandment, binding upon all men, in all ages

    [FONT=&quot]Perpetual Commandment.

    [FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]and from the resurrection of Christ it was changed to the first day of the week and called the Lord's Day.

    [FONT=&quot]Sadly the very two points you i[FONT=&quot]nsist they D[FONT=&quot]ON'[FONT=&quot]T say ... well.. they "do".


    [FONT=&quot]
    How sad.
     
    #139 BobRyan, Jan 7, 2015
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  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You were already proven wrong in scriptures -- I did that in the OP.

    The "men" quoted are simply pointing out that this is not an SDA issue but rather the majority of pro-sunday scholarship opposes your war against that 7 point list in the OP.

    And as it turns out - they are right on 6 of the 7 points.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #140 BobRyan, Jan 7, 2015
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