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Featured The Messianic Kingdom?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, May 26, 2015.

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  1. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    A couple of people kept whining about And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: but where is their response to post 197. I will post Mauro's excellent comments later!
     
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Where do you see the BEMA Seat judgement occurring?
     
  3. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    From what I read about him he was charismatic and if so I trust nothing he wrote.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Actually if it were not for the prevalence of Rapture Ready folks among the charismatic groups {Pentecostal, Church of God, Assemblies of God, and perhaps the WOF} pre-trib-dispensationalism would soon die the death it so richly deserves!

    Obviously you are like some other Rapture Ready people on this BB. They refute pre-trib-false doctrine you slime them. I don't know whether Mauro was Charismatic or not. He was certainly a gifted lawyer and Bible Scholar. Following is a short biography. You should be so gifted!

     
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    You are mistaken.
    1. "the prince" is the closest, the nearest antecedent to the "he" of vs. 27. Both are singular and masculine.
    2. "the people" of vs. 26 destroyed the city. That is what the verse says, and that is the most accurate depiction both of the verse and of history. Who ransacked Jerusalem: Titus? or his armies? It was the latter!
    But the prince that shall come--"he" --a foreigner, not a Jew, shall confirm a covenant with many (the Jews) for seven years.
    --Messiah is only mentioned at the very beginning of verse 26. It could be in a different verse altogether considering that verse division is not inspired and was not put in until many years after the OT was written. The first part of the verse is a completely different thought. Messiah is certainly not the antecedent of "he" of verse 27. How could it be? It is too far removed.

    That is not what it says at all. The word "for" may not be in the Hebrew but is supplied by almost every translation available, including the 54 translators of the KJV. It is also accepted and explained by the Hebrew scholars Keil and Delitszch. They say:
    Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

    and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

    27a And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease,

    As you can see the first part of verse 26 is far removed from verse 27. It could have been a verse in itself. It is too far removed from the "he" in verse 27 to be the antecedent of the "he" of verse 27.

    Taking into consideration what the grammar of the verse properly says according to K & D, the KJV and almost all other translations, your interpretation would still require Christ making a firm covenant for 7 years and then breaking the same covenant in 7 years, making Christ a sinner.

    Whether "for" is directly there or not is irrelevant. All translations put it there to make sense, as K&D do as well.
    Even the translation you quoted from only makes sense with "for."

    Dan 9:27
    (27) And he hath strengthened a covenant with many--one week, and in the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'
    What do we see here?
    --That foreigner, (the Antichrist), has made a covenant, with many (the Jews) for one week or 7 years. And in the midst of that 7 year period he will make a sacrifice.
    --That will desecrate the temple (Mat.24:15 as Jesus said), and the end is shortly thereafter.
     
    #225 DHK, Jun 4, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 4, 2015
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Comments on Daniel 9:27 by an early refugee from the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism, Philip Mauro as presented in THE SEVENTY WEEKS AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION

    Continued.
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Part 2, Continued from earlier post.

    Comments on Daniel 9:27 by an early refugee from the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism, Philip Mauro as presented in THE SEVENTY WEEKS AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION

    Continued.
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Part 3, Continued from previous post.

    Comments on Daniel 9:27 by an early refugee from the false doctrine of pre-rib-dispensationalism, Philip Mauro as presented in THE SEVENTY WEEKS AND THE GREAT TRIBULATION

     
  9. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    From: {http://www.daniels70weeks.com/index.html}

     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    This is a serious flaw in his interpretation. It is unique, and "strange," and does not fit into a proper exegetical and hermeneutical treatment of the passage. It simply presents an excuse for not treating the passage as one should.

    Someone made a covenant "with many" for a period of seven years.
    Who is the "someone"?
    Who are the "many"?
    When was the period of "seven years"?
     
  11. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Bullinger on Daniel 9:Verse 27

     
  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Then there is Arno Gaebelein's annotated Bible he too shows the anti-christ as the he in 9:27:

     
  13. beameup

    beameup Member

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    The "door was left open" for Israel to repent and Messiah would return and set-up his Kingdom in Israel. The "door was left open" at least until 70 A.D.

    Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. Acts 3:19-21

    It calls for the Nation of Israel to repent (the continuation of the ministry of John the Baptist).
    The Nation of Israel was to become a "Nation of Priests" as Moses stated. This is reserved for a future time, when the Body of Christ is complete.
    God does things in his own time, for his own purposes. God does not operate by "human time" (ie: he does not wear a watch).
     
  14. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Jonathan Edwards believed that the "he" or the one referred to in Daniel 9:27 was the Antichrist.
     
  15. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You must be getting desperate when you quote a hyper dispensationalist! I thought normal? pre-tribbers thought them heretics!
     
  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Another dispensationalist. Apparently he bought into the teachings of the Romanist priest!


     
  17. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The most asinine response yet is the following:
    Translated that means: Even though the word for is not in the Word of GOD because it supposedly supports my false doctrine I will simply assume GOD made a mistake in leaving it out!:thumbsup:-:applause:-:applause:-:applause:

    The truth is there is absolutely nothing in Scripture that supports a supposed covenant of seven years between the Jews and anyone else.
     
  18. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    There are many statements in scripture where words are supplied simply to make the statement to read with ease, not all chopped up. This is one of them.

    Here is the translation you quoted:
    Dan 9:27 And he hath strengthened a covenant with many--one week,
    Note: We don't speak that way. It is "choppy." It is more natural to say "for one week," and thus the word "for" (its intended meaning) is supplied.

    Loot at other examples:

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    "It is" is supplied (not in the original). "And that not of yourselves; the gift of God."
    We don't speak that way. It is too choppy or broken up. They supplied the "it is" to provide more fluidity, to make it flow better. It is easier for us to read with "it is" added in.

    Here is an interesting example that we call dynamic equivalence
    Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
    --Neither "God" nor "forbid" are found in the Greek.

    Rom 6:2 let it not be! we who died to the sin--how shall we still live in it?
    The literal translation (Youngs) above translates it (May it not be). That is what it is literally--word for word, and that is what Young does in his translation. But that is not how we speak.

    The KJV translators, in this case, took the strongest possible objection in the English language which the Greek equivalent (May it not be) expressed, and translated or gave an equivalent expression of "God forbid." Many modern translations and paraphrases overuse this method and it gives way to inaccurate translations. Perhaps here an exception could be made.

    Just open your Bible. Look almost anywhere.
    For example in Jeremiah 2:14, it says:
    "Israel a servant?" But that doesn't make sense. So the KJV translators added "Is" "is Israel a servant." Words are added to give the true sense of the meaning of the verse in question.

    The true sense of the verse in question: Dan.9:27 is:
    "And he shall confirm the covenant for one week."
    You won't find better Hebrew scholars than Keil and Delitstzch to confirm.
    Neither will you find such a plethora of translations to confirm the same.
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Daniel’s 70 Weeks.

    Consider again Daniel's prophecy of the 70weeks. In doing so consider the passage without the verse structure which was not in the original.

    Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    In the first sentence we read:Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Six conditions are named in this sentence:

    1. to finish the transgression
    2. to make an end of sins
    3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
    4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
    5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
    6. anoint the most Holy.

    Now some on this BB have insisted that not one of the above six conditions have been met or accomplished, that those are intended only for the Jews or Israel.

    Consider what Scripture tells us:

    There was a man, born some 2000+ years ago who told us:

    Matthew 9:2. And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

    Matthew 9:6. But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

    Matthew 26:28.{NASB} for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

    Luke 24:45-48
    45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
    46. And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
    47. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    48. And ye are witnesses of these things.


    Notice in particular verse 47 where this man tells us: that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. So who was this man who claimed he had the power to forgive sins?

    First we hear from his enemies:

    Mark 2:7. Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
    Luke 5:21. And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?


    And then from this remarkable man Himself. Remarkable Scripture records that this revelation was first made to a Samaritan woman.

    John 4:24-26.
    24. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
    25. The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.
    26. Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.


    The Messiah, for which the Old Testament had much to say was now present on earth. The Gospel according to Luke gives us a remarkable account of the birth of this Messiah and tells us:

    Luke 1:30-35
    30. And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.
    31. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
    32. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
    33. And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
    34. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
    35.* And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.


    The Messiah, not just man, but the GOD-man, the Incarnate GOD, called the son of GOD.

    The Apostle John in his Gospel tells us further about this remarkable person who claimed the power to forgive sins:

    John 1:1-4; 10-14
    1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2. The same was in the beginning with God.
    3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
    4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

    10. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    11. He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    12. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
    13. Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
    14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


    We find that others who wrote about this remarkable person, the Son of GOD, who claimed the power to forgive sins.

    Hebrews 10:12-14, KJV
    12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
    13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
    14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

    Galatians 1:4, KJV
    4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:


    GOD through the Apostle Paul tells us more:

    Philippians 2:5-10
    5. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    6. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    8. And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
    9. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
    10. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;


    Now recall what this Man, Jesus Christ, says of Himself:

    Matthew 26:28.{NASB} for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

    So to any rational person it is obvious that condition #2 {to make an end of sins } above was met through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ for the “many” who believe in HIM!

    Now was sin in this world eliminated through the death of Jesus Christ. Obviously not. Neither is sin eliminated in the so-called Jewish Millennium! Sin will not be eliminated until Jesus Christ returns in Power and Glory at the end of time as we know it.

    To be Continued!
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Daniel’s 70 Weeks.

    Part #2, continued from an earlier post.


    Consider again Daniel's prophecy of the 70weeks. In doing so consider the passage without the verse structure which was not in the original.

    Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

    In the first sentence we read::Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

    Six conditions are named in this sentence:

    1. to finish the transgression
    2. to make an end of sins
    3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
    4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
    5. to seal up the vision and prophecy.
    6. anoint the most Holy.

    In an earlier post it was shown by Scripture that condition #2 {to make an end of sins} was met through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ on the Roman Cross.

    Consider now, on the basis of Scripture, what else this Messiah, Jesus Christ, the Incarnate God accomplished through HIS sacrificial death. Recall that some on this BB have insisted that not one of the above six conditions have been met or accomplished by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, that those are intended only for the Jews or Israel. Perhaps the following passage will show how the foolishness of that doctrine. GOD through the Apostle Paul is speaking to the Church at Ephesus. This is a rather long passage but its significance cannot be overstated:

    Ephesians 2:11-22
    11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
    14. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
    15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
    16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
    17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
    18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
    19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
    20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
    21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
    22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


    Notice particularly Verse 13 and then Verse 16:

    13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    Whatever the Apostle is talking about it is accomplished through the blood of Christ. Jesus Christ, the Messiah of the Jews, through HIS shed blood has reconciled both Jew and Gentile to GOD as Verse 16 shows.

    16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

    Scripture is replete with the teaching that Jesus Christ through HIs sacrifice has reconciled the many to GOD!

    Romans 5:10,11, NKJV
    10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
    11 And not only [that], but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

    Colossians 1:19-22, NKJV
    19 For it pleased [the Father that] in Him all the fullness should dwell,
    20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
    21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled
    22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight--


    Not only has Jesus Christ reconciled the many to GOD but he has committed to the redeemed the ministry of reconciliation:

    2 Corinthians 5:19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

    So once again to any rational person it is obvious that condition #3 above {to make reconciliation for iniquity} was accomplished through the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ for the “many” who believe in HIM!

    To be Continued!
     
    #240 OldRegular, Jun 5, 2015
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