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2 Peter 2:1 shows Jesus died for the non-elect

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ICHTHUS

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I teach that Jesus died for all. Do you deny that?

If a person's sins have all been atoned for then the debt has been paid in full so how can that person ever go to hell?

Wait a minute. The atonement is not offered to us. The atonement is offered to the one who was offended. The atonement is offered to God, not us. So, as it was never offered to us we can't reject it.

Read your Bible, in Romans chapter 3 it very clearly says that God OFFERED Christ as the Atonement for our sins:

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (24-26). "set forth", "to place before", "to offer".
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
"God is not willing that any should perish" (2 Peter 3:9), which is speaking of EVERYONE, and not just the "elect", otherwise these words mean nothing, as if He would will that the "elect" be saved?
Right. So, if it is God's decretal will that everyone be saved, why do some people go to hell?

Is God too weak to accomplish His will?

Or could that verse be understood to be saying that all those He has chosen, in other words "us." Your problem is that you did not quote the entire verse. 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

All of US. All of God's chosen people. He is not willing for any of US to perish.

And, in the context of God destroying the wicked, He is patient with US his chosen people waiting to insure that all of US should come to repentance.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Read your Bible,
Be very careful saying anything that implies that I do not read my bible. Or that I do not know my bible well. Very well.
Romans chapter 3 it very clearly says that God OFFERED Christ as the Atonement for our sins:

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (24-26). "set forth", "to place before", "to offer".
Actually it doesn't say God or Jesus offered the atonement to US. It says God offered up Jesus to be the payment for our sin. Who is the payment owed to? Does God owe us something for our sin?

Or is the payment (propitiation) owned to God and Jesus paid it because we couldn't?
 

ICHTHUS

Member
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Be very careful saying anything that implies that I do not read my bible. Or that I do not know my bible well. Very well.
Actually it doesn't say God or Jesus offered the atonement to US. It says God offered up Jesus to be the payment for our sin. Who is the payment owed to? Does God owe us something for our sin?

Or is the payment (propitiation) owned to God and Jesus paid it because we couldn't?

I don't know why you get so hung up on things that I write? When I say "read you Bible", you jump to wrong conclusions and make it say something that it does not! It simply says, IT IS IN YOUR BIBLE what I am saying!

God the Father "set forth", which means in the Greek "to present" Jesus Christ as a sin offering for the sins of the lost world. This propitiation was something "paid" to Himself, as God in Jesus Christ met His own Just demands for sinful man, and made the perfect Atonement for all our sins
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
It simply says, IT IS IN YOUR BIBLE what I am saying!
But that is not what you said. You said "Read your bible" which insinuates that I don't read my bible or have little understanding of what my bible says.

God the Father "set forth", which means in the Greek "to present" Jesus Christ as a sin offering for the sins of the lost world. This propitiation was something "paid" to Himself, as God in Jesus Christ met His own Just demands for sinful man, and made the perfect Atonement for all our sins
Exactly. And nowhere is that atonement or propitiation offered to US! It was God Who we offended with our sin and it is to God the atonement and propitiation are paid. Not to us. And your own statement above invalidates your claim that the atonement was offered to sinners who rejected it. It was never offered to sinners. It was offered to God. That is who offerings are offered to. Not us.
 

McCree79

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God the Father "set forth", which means in the Greek "to present" Jesus Christ as a sin offering for the sins of the lost world. This propitiation was something "paid" to Himself, as God in Jesus Christ met His own Just demands for sinful man, and made the perfect Atonement for all our sins

Well, that causes some manor issues with your post #17.

How do the lost reject the payment paid from the God-man to God? As you stated...man is not involved in the transaction.




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MennoSota

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That is YOUR own opinion and NOT what the Bible teaches. Why can you not tell me what John 3:16-17 teaches? As I have shown more than once, the language used cannot be for the "elect" only, as it is "conditional" which makes it possible for the "elect" to be lost, if you take "world" there to mean the "elect" only.
Don't forget 18 and 19 as you read.
John 3:16-19
[16]“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
[17]God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him.
[18]“There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God’s one and only Son.
[19]And the judgment is based on this fact: God’s light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil.

Clearly the whole world will not be saved as you wish to imply from verse 17 because verses 18 and 19 clarify this and share that there is indeed judgment.

So, when Jesus came it was not in the role of judge. Instead he came as Messiah and Redeemer. However, judgment is coming with certainty as we see in the verses you conveniently neglect to mention.
 

MennoSota

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No, please do NOT put words into my mouth! I never said anything what you falsely charge. It is indeed false to say that God never intended the death of Jesus Christ for the salvation of ALL sinners. This is exactly what the Bible teaches, that Jesus' death is for the salvation of all mankind. You people cannot see past your warped Calvinistic "theology" that it is the likes of YOU who teach complete nonsense about the Atonement and for whom Jesus actually died. You distort the plain Teachings of the Bible to say things that it does not, and use fancy words and statements to promote what YOU think is the truth, and then try to distort what people like myself have to say.
Accusations...hmmm...where do we read about accusers of the saints...
 

MennoSota

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Read your Bible, in Romans chapter 3 it very clearly says that God OFFERED Christ as the Atonement for our sins:

Of course He did.

Who was Paul writing to in the letter to the Romans? Was it to the redeemed or to the pagans in Rome? Since Paul says "our" does he call himself a pagan or is the word "our" referring to the redeemed?
 

utilyan

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"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves"

The word "bought" here is from the Greek, "agorazo", which refers to the "redemption" of Jesus Christ, of His blood shed for ALL sinners. This use is as defined in the standard Greek lexicons of Arndt and Gingrich, Thayer, and Robinson, and is also used in 1 Corinthians 6:20, 7:23, for this purpose. These people who are said to have been BOUGHT by the BLOOD of Jesus Christ, are REJECTING this fact, and therefore will bring "destruction on themselves", as did Judas.

See also Jude 4

"For some men, who were designated for this judgment long ago, have come in by stealth; they are ungodly, turning the grace of our God into promiscuity and denying Jesus Christ, our only Master and Lord."

Here the same word "Master", Greek, "despotes" is used for the Lord Jesus Christ. Not, as some try to get out of what it teaches in 2 Peter, by saying that it refers to God the Father.


It says "denying the master who bought them cheeseburgers".



These Calvinist are the extremists. If they were consistent they would all be westboro Baptists.


Look John Calvin himself says:

Even denying the Lord that bought them. Though Christ may be denied in various ways, yet Peter, as I think, refers here to what is expressed by Jude, that is, when the grace of God is turned into lasciviousness; for Christ redeemed us, that he might have a people separated from all the pollutions of the world, and devoted to holiness and innocency. They, then, who throw off the bridle, and give themselves up to all kinds of licentiousness, are not unjustly said to deny Christ by whom they have been redeemed. Hence, that the doctrine of the gospel may remain whole and complete among us, let this be fixed in our minds, that we have been redeemed by Christ, that he may be the Lord of our life and of our death, and that our main object ought to be, to live to him and to die to him. He then says, that their swift destruction was at hand, lest others should be ensnared by them. [164]




Nothing about "atonement" my foot!

Was it poor exegesis on Calvin's to confirm the op's take on scripture?

Calvin calls the false teacher REDEEMED.


Leave it up to our extremist buddies here who get everything you say backwards, get Calvin backwards and get the bible backwards.

They are not even TOGETHER. They are all independent. and WRONG.


When a Calvinist tells you John Calvin is wrong............ They don't realize that makes no sense.


And somehow everyone was a poor reader for more the 1500 years, oh PLUS because Calvin agrees with us here.

I wish you guys who finally have the infallible meanings of the scripture were brave enough to pick out your canon of scripture.


How about show us prior to 1500s of anyone understanding that scripture in that deformed way. Your so wrong even Calvin is not with you here.
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

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That is YOUR own opinion and NOT what the Bible teaches. Why can you not tell me what John 3:16-17 teaches? As I have shown more than once, the language used cannot be for the "elect" only, as it is "conditional" which makes it possible for the "elect" to be lost, if you take "world" there to mean the "elect" only.

JB: 'WORLD'' beyond the Jews. I.e... Not the Jews only... As prophesied in OT and Spoken by Paul, Peter etc.
 

Billx

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IF you care to read, I am dealing with the ATONEMENT of Jesus, that He actually DIED FOR EVERYONE, which in itself PROVES the Calvinistic teaching of "election" to be FALSE.
A Baptist without election.. now that is a novel I idea. O, Spurgeon took no stand. Another novel idea. Election may really be about hearing and responding, whoops! That was Wesley? Theology get really convoluted, does it not.
 

ICHTHUS

Member
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Does that translate to save and non-saved?

hello Bill, thanks for your message. The entire human race, whether saved or lost, are either Jewish or Gentile, as the Bible says, "to the Jew first and then the Gentile". If you are one then you are not the other. This makes up the human race.
 

bbmember

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ICHTHUS.... I agree with you.

Several years ago a very large Bible book store in our city was closing, so I took my last opportunity to ask its very Calvinist Bible salesman about 2 Peter 2:1. Suffice it to say that he was livid. Just livid. He knew exactly what God was saying and I was implying. Needless to say, I walked out of that store for the last time very satisfied indeed. And shame on him for doubting the justice of God.
 

Yeshua1

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Read your Bible, in Romans chapter 3 it very clearly says that God OFFERED Christ as the Atonement for our sins:

"Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus" (24-26). "set forth", "to place before", "to offer".
Jesus offer was to His father, as the propiation in His blood, and the Father accepted that offer, as shown by the resurrection. Again, God cannot have intended to have the death of jesus atone and save all sinners, else all would be saved!
 

HankD

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Well, that causes some manor issues with your post #17.

How do the lost reject the payment paid from the God-man to God? As you stated...man is not involved in the transaction.
They reject the invitation of repentance.

Acts 17:30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.

HankD
 

Yeshua1

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That is YOUR own opinion and NOT what the Bible teaches. Why can you not tell me what John 3:16-17 teaches? As I have shown more than once, the language used cannot be for the "elect" only, as it is "conditional" which makes it possible for the "elect" to be lost, if you take "world" there to mean the "elect" only.
Jesus died for the sins of the entire world, but the father only intended that His death would benefit those whom he foreknew and drawn to jesus, the elect in Christ!
 
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