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The Bible condemns OSAS doctrine.. yet some folks still believe it

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Mar 28, 2018.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine

    Matt 18
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    Romans 11
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    1 Cor 6
    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified
     
  2. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Bob - Just wondering - how many people have you converted on this page?
    and I doubt we will convert you.
     
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  3. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    So after its all said and done.

    Folks who are in heaven and actually Saved have the option(FREE WILL) to leave later and go to hell/annihilation?
     
  4. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    True in almost every discussion on every topic when we look at the people "posting" --

    But when you look at the people IM-ing and reading ... not so cut-and-dried in favor of the idea of "no such thing as objective unbiased Bible student"
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    They can choose that - but the loyal Angels have not chosen it - and the compelling evidence from our own 6000 year experiment in sin and rebellion on earth - is likely the best "vaccine" against anyone "choosing" rebellion in the future.
     
  6. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Nope nothing there that says one can lose their salvation.
     
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  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine

    Matt 18
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    Romans 11
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    1 Cor 6
    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified


    creative writing?
    or wishful thinking?

    Simple question for you - where we can all see the answer plainly in the text.

    In Matthew 18 what is the action that is referenced by Christ as "doing the SAME to you" in Matthew 18

    35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    You and I both know that we can all see in Matthew 18 what the answer to that question is.

    If the defense of OSAS means pretending not to see what texts are saying if they in any way conflict with OSAS - then it is already a fallen doctrine
     
    #7 BobRyan, Mar 28, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Some folks might "wish" that the defense of any given doctrine is "successful" as long as you claim to believe in it no matter what details must be ignored in scriptures that oppose it. But admitting to having to use such tactics (by outright using those tactics right here on the board for all to see) is to admit that the doctrine did not survive sola-scriptura testing.
     
  9. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    You assume those verses show one was saved and then lost it. Not the context. Context is King!
     
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  10. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    Scripture is the best commentary for Scripture. When the evidence is overwhelming that our life in Christ is "eternal," "everlasting," and "sealed until the day of redemption," then those few obscure passages that "seem" to teach otherwise must be examined and the possibility strongly considered that they are teaching something else altogether.

    On the other hand, when one comes to the Word of God with preconceived ideas, one can see pet doctrines in several places where they do not actually exist.
     
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  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I am more than happy to read some Baptist doctrine that proposes that "fully forgiven" means "not forgiven, lost and going to hell". You have not even attempted such a doctrinal statement yet post as if you had already proven that all Baptist believe such a thing.

    Clearly that is probblem
     
  12. Pastor_Bob

    Pastor_Bob Well-Known Member

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    The biggest mistake here is making this parable about salvation. It isn't about salvation; it is about forgiveness. One does not need to be saved every time one asks for forgiveness.

    Verse 35 is not difficult to understand either: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses."

    The action has nothing whatsoever to do with delivering him to the tormentors. To believe that would also necessitate believing in temporary punishment such as a purgatory; because, to follow this example, the man was only in torment "till he should pay all that was due unto him."

    The action is God allowing us to reap what we have sown. If we act without sympathy, understanding, compassion, and forgiveness, we will reap the same from our fellow man as well as our heavenly Father. Again, this is not about salvation.
     
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  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Honestly I do not understand this post. I have no idea what you are saying.
     
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  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus Himself claimed that NONE whom he saves will ever be lost again, right or wrong?
     
  15. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    The Original Post ignores the fact that we are to confirm our election. It is not like we grow into our election, our salvation, it is more like it was either there or not.

    We are told of those whose labor proved they are in the Lamb's Book of Life. The wording of the bible would be very different if our election at salvation could be lost. Instead, it sounds like genuine salvation can be confirmed with a holy and godly life, but not lost. Also, what of the bible verses to the elect that we will persevere not on our power but on God's?

    I will find the relevant verses later and post them, as I am on my phone.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Those who are really saved will have real fruit to evidence their salvation, not the cause, but as the result!
     
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  17. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Somebody wants to use parables to prove a point of theology? You must think Jesus was a liar, then, as he said the mustard seed is the smallest of seeds. It ain't.
     
  18. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Matthew 7

    22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

    According to your faith, it would be impossible for anyone to prophesy or do miracles or drive out demons unless they were qualified as Elect.



    DRIVING OUT DEMONS is a particularly important feat.

    Because according to Jesus you can only drive out demon if God gives you the power, A demon will not drive out a demon.


    Matthew 12

    24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”

    25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

    Pharisees believe themselves chosen elect. So when they see someone who is not them do something good they claim it is evil intention a fake good. Exact same way some will see a "reprobate" save the life of another and say well there was a impure evil motive behind it.
     
  19. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
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    We test to see if we really are elect (2 Peter 1:3-11, 1 Thessalonians 1:4-10).

    I harp a lot on 2 Peter 1, but John MacArthur does a great job explaining the doctrine through 1 Thessalonians 1:

    Identifying the Elect, Part 3

    The scripture Cross References and Treasury of Scripture on the right of the following page are also very helpful:

    2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election. For if you do these things, you will never stumble,

    The problem I now see is twofold:

    1. You are elect or not, you have the Spirit of God indwelling you as an eternal deposit (Ephesians 1:14) or not, you are born again from above or not.

    2. Our wills are appealed to in the bible in order to act morally and to prove our salvation. Some have taken this to mean "Do everything as if it is all on me, and know it is all on God." I once read that in a conservative, literalist Study Bible. I am wary of this argument, but I bring it up to discuss it in this thread. Could that argument be right?

    In Philippians 4:3 we are told by Paul of people he has confidence are in the Lamb's book of Life because they contended for the Gospel with him. This stands out because it is so rare and because it would imply that such people have proved their election.

    Also, what of the plethora of bible verses to the elect that we will persevere? The classic OSAS verses?

    What Does the Bible Say About Once Saved Always Saved?
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine

    Matt 18
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    Romans 11
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    1 Cor 6
    9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified


    Well first of all I agree that we do not lose salvation each time we sin after we are saved/born-again. But that is not the issue in Matthew 18 (for example). As we both probably know.

    In Matthew 18 we have "full forgiveness" I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded

    Matt 18
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    In Matthew 18 we have full "forgiveness revoked" not merely the debt for the new transgression but ALL the previous debt.

    34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him

    And then worst of all we have Christ speaking outside of the parable to His fully forgiven followers saying this --


    Matt 18
    35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    "The SAME" in this case - refers to the "full forgiveness revoked" act in vs 34.. as we both see.

    That is an irrefutable problem for OSAS.

    Here is a point where apparently we both agree. vs 35 is very obvious in referring to the action of vs 34 this is irrefutable and would be taken gladly if one did not have an a priori directive that would not allow it.



    Before we got too far from the text.

    Matt 18
    34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    "Do the same" can only reference the "doing" that we see in vs 34. This is irrefutable

    not true at all.

    We can for the sake of clarity - change the text to make it purgatory this way.

    Matt 18

    The servant owed a few weeks wages..34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him and then let him out with all debts settled - restored to favor.

    But the chapter says the servant owed more than it was even possible for him to pay and still live - more than a life time.

    This in the actual text "repay all" would be fatal. You have "inserted" the idea that possibly the story is leading the reader to think that it was survivable. But the chapter is very careful to point out that it was more than he could pay in his lifetime.

    Your suggestion requires that we ignore that key detail. The sin debt of the sinner is more than the sinner can afford to pay -- he will not survive. The "I forgave you ALL" is a reference for us - to God forgiving us for all our sins. None of this is of the form " or you could also go to heaven if you pay your own sins". No "nice heaven" is being offered even in symbol to the servant who has his forgiveness revoked. The parable only offers him torture..

    ; because, to follow this example, the man was only in torment "till he should pay all that was due unto him."

    To be honest nothing in the actual chapter even remotely directs the reader that direction.

    We could for the sake of clarity edit the chapter to insert the idea you have suggested.

    33 and so his fellow servants were unhappy with him - so also was the king and he had to endure their displeasure for a while. 34 So you too if you do not forgive others will have to endure the unhappy feelings of others for a short while.

    Nothing at all of that sort is actually in the chapter as we both probably know.

    The difference is I don't have a framework for the Gospel and salvation that would require me to try to re-imagine the text out to that extreme level so as to assist me in much-needed inserted inference.
     
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