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Featured Do our systems of thought teach that Jesus is really the One True God?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Dec 14, 2018.

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  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The orthodox Church view has though stated that Jesus has both natures within Himself, so up to you to prove that He does not!
     
    #181 Yeshua1, Dec 17, 2018
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    If Jesus did not have the nature of Humanity within Himself, than God actually did die in full upon that Cross, as The man who died was just God there, not his humanity...
    I wonder , does JonC hold to there was no need for the Virgin Birth, since Jesus was just God in nature, and thus no humanity would get affected/corrupted by the fall to deal with?
     
    #182 Yeshua1, Dec 17, 2018
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Do you include two minds, two thoughts, two perspectives, two impulses...

    The problem with using “nature” is how the “nature” is considered.

    That some desire “100% human” to include in some manner the fallen will that had to be subjected, or the body in some manner was subject to the fallen nature is just not ultimately supportable by Scripture.

    Christ was not some Devine that took on the human form, as appeared before Abraham and wrestled with Jacob, but was “a man” (flesh and blood, bones and innards).

    That is what the creed states.

    However, what some in this modern time seem to do is present a Christ that is doing combat with the nature of God, having to subject Himself, and conquer the flesh and temptations.

    That is not the presentation of Scripture.
     
    #183 agedman, Dec 17, 2018
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus was fully God and fully Man, as in Nature of God and of man, just sinless in His humanity, as Adam once was, but not as Adam was afterwards!
     
    #184 Yeshua1, Dec 17, 2018
  5. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    What view?

    The Archangel
     
    #185 The Archangel, Dec 17, 2018
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Then here is our impasse.

    I do not accept the Fourth Ecumenical Council as an authority for belief. I hope you understand. To me it is like insisting I must prove paedobaptism wrong before we can discuss covenants. If that were orthodox Baptist belief (I am Baptist) and we were in that company then perhaps I could see your point.

    But as it stands I (along with many Protestants and all...that I know of....Eastern Orthodox) do not recognize an acceptance of the creed as the official view of the Church. The burden is on you.

    So if it ends here, I hope you have a wonderful Christmas.

    John
     
    #186 JonC, Dec 17, 2018
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I say "great Scripture"!!!

    If we were arguing that Christ was not God-man then the passages would work. But I agree that Juses us fully God and fully man. I disagree that this constitutes two separate natures within the Person of Christ. That is what you have to prove.

    And @The Archangel is right to lean on early RCC doctrine. This is where you have to go because it is not contained in Scripture.
     
    #187 JonC, Dec 17, 2018
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. But then again - I never claimed that you believed in a Son of two persons. I am saying Jesus did not have to natures but one nature that pre existed the Incatnation. Those are very different things.

    @The Archangel 's presentation of the creed was, IMHO, sufficient.
     
    #188 JonC, Dec 17, 2018
  9. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    I do not accept Chalcedon as equal with Scripture. You have yet to provide any scripture to state your position and you have yet to say how and why Chalcedon does not jivve with Scripture. That is the impasse. You have made a claim and yet you refuse to substantiate it. Until you do so, because the onus is on you, we will remain at this impasse.

    The Archangel
     
    #189 The Archangel, Dec 17, 2018
  10. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    And yet you've never tried to prove your assertion by citing Scripture.

    The Archangel
     
    #190 The Archangel, Dec 17, 2018
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Why would there have to have been the Virgin birth then, cease Jesus did not have a real humanity, so no need to bypass the fall of Adam. correct?
     
    #191 Yeshua1, Dec 17, 2018
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Oops....that's another logical fallacy Bro.

    It is not up to me to prove something does not exist. The burden of proof is on the one claiming something exists. That's basic argument.
     
    #192 JonC, Dec 17, 2018
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Ok. Perhaps I can teach you something here -

    There are NO passages of Scripture that state Jesus had two natures. As proof I offer no passages of Scripture. Unless you can rebut my claim by providing Scripture your argument is lost.

    Do you see now why this is a fallacy?
     
    #193 JonC, Dec 17, 2018
  14. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Seriously, you need to learn the fallacies. Everyone you tried to cite today has been cited wrongly.

    You claimed that Christ did not have two natures. The vast majority of Christendom--from Chalcedon onward--claims He did. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to say why Chalcedon's conclusions were wrong.

    What you're engaging in is the fallacy of onus probandi. You've made a claim against the majority view. The onus is on you to say why the majority view is wrong; it is not on me to explain why the majority view is right. For the purposes of debate, it simply does not matter what you recognize as authoritative or lacking authority--the onus is on you as the initiator of the claim in this thread that Christ does not have two natures.

    The Archangel
     
    #194 The Archangel, Dec 17, 2018
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Again, Bro., you are wrong. But I appreciate your attempt to "hang in there". Too often some members quickly learn they are in over their heads and abandon threads.

    Why, if Scripture is your final authority, are you so hesitant here to go there??????
     
    #195 JonC, Dec 17, 2018
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The irony here is t by at @The Archangel 's position also demands orthodox Christian belief abandon the Theory of Penal Substitution. The majority of those involved in the present debate deny that theory.

    It may be an acceptable trade off (Penal Substitution Theory is heresy but Jesus had two natures). It would be interesting, anyway.....that is....if we can hold "majority rules" mentality across the board as @The Archangel implies.

    :Laugh:Laugh:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao:Laugh:Laugh:Laugh:Laugh:Laugh:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao
     
    #196 JonC, Dec 17, 2018
  17. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    1.) Not wrong.

    2.) Not hesitant. See quoted post above.

    The Archangel
     
    #197 The Archangel, Dec 17, 2018
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I did., Bro.

    You are intelligent and I always appreciate your words.

    I understand your claims to be implying that there are no passages stating that Jesus had two natures so we should look to the RCC. Of course, I could be mistaken. I will wait on Scripture to make that determination.

    In Christ

    John
     
    #198 JonC, Dec 17, 2018
  19. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Again, you miss the point. I am not implying anything, as have told you--so you know better than to misrepresent my position (regardless of what you "understand"). You are trying to bait me. I have a whole Bible full of things that demonstrate the necessity of the Chalcedonian formula. However, the burden of proof is not on me.

    The Archangel
     
    #199 The Archangel, Dec 17, 2018
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Great brother!!!!!

    A whole Bible that demonstrates the creed is correct. Let's start there.

    Give me one verse stating that Jesus has two natures. We can go from there.

    I look forward to the passage you will provide.

    In Christ,

    John
     
    #200 JonC, Dec 17, 2018
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