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Featured Where Does Faith Come From?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed1689, Jun 29, 2019.

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  1. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yes...just like I said.You teach that the natural man can in and of himself welcome truth, before regeneration.
    That which we have without the supernatural work of God, contrary to scripture.
    You teach man is just fine as he is. You claim you answered the other questions, but you have not.
    That is your answer. Thst is all you can do is offer what you believe. Thanks for your response.
     
    #181 Iconoclast, Jul 2, 2019
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  2. Squire Robertsson

    Squire Robertsson Administrator
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    Six Hour Warning
    This thread will be closed sometime after 9:30 AM Pacific.
     
    #182 Squire Robertsson, Jul 2, 2019
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    @Iconoclast

    If you want to have a one on one conversation there is a feature for that. Send him a PM.

    Anyone can comment on the open forum. Do not tell anyone to keep out of your "conversation" on the open forum.
     
    #183 JonC, Jul 2, 2019
  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Here is what Dr. Flowers said and I stopped and started to make sure I got this word-for-word from his mouth...

    “We need the gospel, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, not that the gospel PLUS some supernatural extra work that has to happen, is the power of God unto salvation.“

    “This effectual work of God that has to happen in order for someone to believe the gospel, that is difficult, at least for me, to get over.”

    Dr. Roger Olson just said “okay”. He would not refute him, but you could tell he would have no of this.

    Dr. Flowers has said that the gospel ALONE, not the gospel PLUS the some supernatural extra extra work, saves ppl. That’s full blown Pelagianism.

    I am convinced you will say Dr. Flowers didn’t mean it that way. But that’s how he ALWAYS operates. When he’s caught with his proverbial pants down, he says he didn’t say it, it got twisted into something else. :rolleyes:
     
    #184 SovereignGrace, Jul 2, 2019
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The issue is some have boxed themselves in with their philosophical views. They cannot tolerate an opposing position enough to even understand it but instead look for an echo chamber. That's the difference between those who understand and those who have simply been indoctrinated into a position (it is not the view itself).


    Some men you just can't reach. So you get what we had here last week, which is the way he wants it; well, he gets it. I don't like it any more than you men. :Whistling
     
    #185 JonC, Jul 2, 2019
  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I do not agree with his theology but I also cannot fault a man for believing Romans 1:16 is literal.
     
    #186 JonC, Jul 2, 2019
  7. SovereignGrace

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    Here’s the video where he said it. Go to the 57:00 and start from there. Their convo starts at around 51:40. Those are HIS words coming out of HIS mouth. The very same thing another member on here states as well.


     
    #187 SovereignGrace, Jul 2, 2019
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  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    I posted the video, listen to it yourself.
     
    #188 SovereignGrace, Jul 2, 2019
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  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    When was this posted by Skandelon? How long ago?
     
    #189 SovereignGrace, Jul 2, 2019
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I also posted the man's words affirming the supernatural work of the Spirit in salvation. The issue is that the man is not here to defend his position and provide context. I will ALWAYS take the written word of a person over a comment as people are more likely to think through what they write.

    It is cowardly to attack a Christian in that person's absence.

    Do you believe that that the gospel of Christ for is the power of God unto salvation?
     
    #190 JonC, Jul 2, 2019
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Do you believe that that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation?
     
    #191 JonC, Jul 2, 2019
  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    What he is saying give them the gospel, not the gospel plus the working of the Spirit, and that will save them.

    There’s a problem, w/o the Spirit, these words just whizz by as they consider them foolish, and can’t understand them. Why? They’re spiritually discerned.
     
    #192 SovereignGrace, Jul 2, 2019
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Do you believe that that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation?
     
    #193 JonC, Jul 2, 2019
  14. Marooncat79

    Marooncat79 Well-Known Member
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    According to Ephesians 2:8-9, Faith comes from God
     
    #194 Marooncat79, Jul 2, 2019
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  15. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    In accompaniment of the Holy Spirit. Yes.

    From Adam Clarke...


    It is the power of God unto salvation - δυναμις γαρ θεου εστιν· The almighty power of God accompanies this preaching to the souls of them that believe; and the consequence is, they are saved; and what but the power of God can save a fallen, sinful soul?
     
    #195 SovereignGrace, Jul 2, 2019
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  16. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    So do you have a problem with scripture? That is what he was quoting?

    Of course. It is no surprise that we do not believe that we must first be regenerated so that we can believe. There is no scandal here.

    You have yet to provide that quote.

    So far that is what you have done.
     
    #196 Revmitchell, Jul 2, 2019
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  17. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    So you cannot accept the passage without qualification. Paul did not add the comentary you have provided (it is not somehow hidden in the Greek, this was in the introduction to Romans).

    The issue is Flowers has attrubuted the gospel's power as being that it is a work of the Spirit.

    The disagreement is not whether or not the Spirit is supernaturally involved but whether or not there is a special work for the elect (as opposed to a general work for all men).

    I agree with you that the crux of his argument has man deternining his own salvation. But you were not exactly honest in your wording of his position.
     
    #197 JonC, Jul 2, 2019
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  18. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    That is where we differ. This is where you Augustinians go wrong. You take one single text as proof text for this bad theology and then completely misunderstand its context. Scripture says there is power in the word itself. (Hebrews 4:12; Romans 1:16; Romans 10:17)

    What is scandalous is the low view of scripture in salvation that you all have. The insufficiency of scripture you hold to.
     
    #198 Revmitchell, Jul 2, 2019
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  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    And you have a low view of scripture and find it insufficient.
     
    #199 Revmitchell, Jul 2, 2019
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  20. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    ***Sigh***

    Paul isn’t going to contradict himself.

    For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, “I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.” Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.[1 Corinthians 1:18-21]

    Paul has qualified it here. The word of the cross(i.e. the gospel) is foolishness to those who are perishing. It being presented them they naturally discard it, have no desire for it. But to those who are being saved(same word of the cross being presented them) it is the power of God.

    What Paul was saying is that no one is saved outside the preaching of the cross, that the Spirit works through the cross to save them that believe. Now, ppl in their fallen state will never believe. That is why it is imperative to teach that not only the gospel saves, but that the gospel preached while the Spirit works, saves ppl.
     
    #200 SovereignGrace, Jul 2, 2019
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