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Another thing a Calvinist has never done.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by utilyan, Dec 21, 2020.

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  1. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    There are many Calvinist here who believe Salvation is a gift. A free Gifts does not have conditions. Having to repent would be a works based Salvation. Maybe you'd like to rephrase your statement.
    MB
     
    #81 MB, Jan 11, 2021
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  2. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    No one here is Orthodox Calvinist. Are you guys BAPTIZING your infants too? Anglican/Presbyterian.

    Westminster confession chapter 28:


    Section 3.) Dipping of the person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person.(1)
    (1) Heb 9:10,19,20,21,22; Ac 2:41; Ac 16:33; Mk 7:4
    ------------------------------------
    Section 4.) Not only those that do actually profess faith in the obedience unto Christ,(1) but also the infants of one, or both, believing parents, are to be baptized.(2)
    (1) Mk 16:15,16; Ac 8:37,38 (2) Ge 17:7,9 with Gal 3:9,14 and Col 2:11,12; and Ac 2:38,39; and Ro 4:11,12; 1Co 7:14; Mt 28:19; Mk 10:13-16; Lk 18:15



    The most common and numerous Calvinist are PRESBYTERIANS. They are just not very vocal.
    They outnumber Baptist by 50 million or so.

    If you google Presbyterian plenty of folks would cringe at their beliefs. Some would consider too liberal.

    For example you might hear God loves everyone. You are elect if you pick up Christianity and not if you don't. A more hindsight view.

    Who would disagree with the confession stating "upon the apprehension of God's mercy in Christ to such as are penitent, he so grieves for and hates his sins, as that he turns from them all to God".

    I think Even NON-CALS would agree so much as to just call that plain Christianity. Maybe only because the Spiritual mechanics, the means, and the conditions of having this ability have not been insisted.

    Here I think we are talking with a differ breed which those guys might consider "HYPER" Calvinist.

    I think I need to read over the entire confession. Maybe someone could shed more light here for me.
     
    #82 utilyan, Jan 11, 2021
  3. Noah Hirsch

    Noah Hirsch Active Member

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    If they do not affirm that repentance is necessary for salvation, then they cannot be said to affirm the doctrine of irresistible grace also called effectual calling or the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints as historically maintained by Calvinists. Yes, salvation is a gift. It is not of works. Even faith itself is the free gift of God, but that in no way nullifies that the necessity to believe in order to salvation. The faith of the elect, the faith that is saving is inseparable from repentance.

    We both acknowledge that salvation is in no way of ourselves or by our works, and that even repentance and faith are the gifts of God and not something we naturally do in our unregenerate state, and maintain that repentance and faith is necessary to salvation.

    God in the conversation of the elect gives to them a new heart and a new spirit, makes them willing, so that they do repent and believe.
     
    #83 Noah Hirsch, Jan 11, 2021
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  4. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Once again you show you do not understand Calvinism.
     
    #84 Reformed1689, Jan 11, 2021
  5. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Okay I am wrong. I can buy that. We are capable of repentance. Thanks.
     
    #85 utilyan, Jan 11, 2021
  6. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    We are not in our natural state. We must be drawn by God to repentance.
     
    #86 Reformed1689, Jan 11, 2021
  7. Noah Hirsch

    Noah Hirsch Active Member

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    I don’t think you want to affirm everything in the Westminster Confession of Faith to be an orthodox Calvinist. There are some differences between the Westminster Confession of Faith and the Second London Baptist Confession of Faith, but that does not mean that if one adheres to one and not the other that he is not an orthodox Calvinist. But I mainly an orthodox Calvinist would have an orthodox understanding of salvation, particularly an orthodox understanding of all five points of Calvinism. There are different historic confessions of faith and catechisms that do not all agree with one another on every doctrine.
     
    #87 Noah Hirsch, Jan 11, 2021
  8. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    I agree. Its when you insist absolutely the means of How and When, that our disagreement will probably bubble up to the top.
     
    #88 utilyan, Jan 11, 2021
  9. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I follow.
     
    #89 Reformed1689, Jan 11, 2021
  10. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    Things like innate ability. The sufficiency of the Gospel.

    Can the Gospel save a person?

    Luke8
    12And those beside the road are the ones who have heard, then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

    Isn't it strange if God does not want a person saved to need a devil to accomplish this?
     
    #90 utilyan, Jan 12, 2021
  11. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No
     
    #91 Reformed1689, Jan 12, 2021
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  12. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    So I would consider the Gospel a means, power of God. When gospel saves a person God has saved them.

    Romans 1

    16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

    I don't depreciate the gospel, it is divine in origin. I cannot dictate to God that the only means by which he can save me is for his divine finger to reach out from the sky and zap me.
     
    #92 utilyan, Jan 12, 2021
  13. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Ok, it depends on what you mean when you say the Gospel. The Gospel itself is just a message and the message saves nobody. The events and actions that the message discusses are what saves.
     
    #93 Reformed1689, Jan 12, 2021
  14. utilyan

    utilyan Well-Known Member
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    That message is the power of God. xD :D


    Its like when God decides rather than send a armored battle tank with 10 machine guns to fight a giant........... He chooses a child to slay a giant.

    We can't throw our own estimations of what is reliable nor can I insist on how decides to work.

    The Jews expected a conquering messiah.

    We cannot dictate the "SPIRITUAL MECHANICS" of how God changes the mind. The "zap" doesn't have to be some invisible non-concrete magic. God can decide to change a person through even REASONABLE means.

    You have to accept or rather put your idea of sovereignty of God on OVERDRIVE. That absolutely all phenomenon has God for sustaining source.

    A closed bible can fall one someone's head and it is possible for God to change their entire life that way.

    God can put out a blazing inferno with a toothpick covered in gasoline.

    You should consider could you actually call anything the GOSPEL if it wasn't a direct contact message from God to you?

    It is God's chosen means. Perhaps it appears more humble and meek than parting the entire heavens in half on the surface.

    The Gospel reaches straight to your heart, God conveys his love in a particular means not sole means.


    OR in the LEAST, ask yourself COULD God make it so where the Gospel could save you? Does God have the capacity to establish this?
     
    #94 utilyan, Jan 12, 2021
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2021
  15. Noah Hirsch

    Noah Hirsch Active Member

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    Right

    “Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.” (The Westminster Confession of Faith,
    There is no ground in Scripture to say that God brings any to faith without the gospel.

    “So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.” (Romans 10:17 ASV)

    God has made known to us the means by which He brings sinners to faith. In His word which is the only standard of our faith and practice we learn that it is by the word of Christ. This does no dishonor to His omnipotence, but is faithful to what He has made known to us in His word.
     
    #95 Noah Hirsch, Jan 12, 2021
  16. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Calvinism in my humbled opinion is contrary to scripture. No where is any of it's doctrines in scripture. What Calvinist call interpretation eliminates truth all together .
    There is no inability because of total depravity. Gentiles are not cursed with it. There is no election unconditional or not for Gentiles
    There is no limited atonement. the atonement covers all when they are saved. and all can be saved.
    There is no irresistible grace. Grace is freely given to those who believe and ask for it.
    There is no need for perseverance because once sealed by the spirit we belong to God No one can takes us out of His hand. We are kept by God
    Perseverance is for those seeking God. Men do seek God.
    Calvinism for all intents and purposes is nothing more than warmed over Catholicism.
    Faith is not a gift we acquire it by listening to the gospel. Romans 10:17

    Repentance has already been granted to Gentiles
    Gentiles can hear and understand Acts 28:28
    MB
     
    #96 MB, Jan 12, 2021
  17. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Again you show your ignorance.
    Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    It is a message that saves.
    MB
     
    #97 MB, Jan 12, 2021
  18. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No, the message itself does not save, nor does that verse claim that.
     
    #98 Reformed1689, Jan 12, 2021
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  19. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    You just do not understand David. Someday you will I hope for your sake.
    MB
     
    #99 MB, Jan 12, 2021
  20. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    If it is only the message itself that saves, as you guys are claiming, everyone would be saved. Obviously it is more than the message.
     
    #100 Reformed1689, Jan 12, 2021
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