The General redumption is essentual.

[AustinC]

You have an unBiblical view of redemption.

I am going directly off your definition of general redemption.

 

[37818]

I am arguing against your definition of general redemption.

The issue is that you refuse to follow your definition to its completion. I can point it out to you, but you refuse to believe it.
It's like pointing out that the clear liquid in the container is battery acid, but because it looks like water the person refuses to believe what is being said. Will the person open that bottle and drink to his death or will that person heed the warning?

No. You are arguing against your view of general redemption not mine.

 

[37818]

I am going directly off your definition of general redemption.

Again, not true. Your definition of general redemption not mine.

 

[AustinC]

Calvinism has no gospel because everything they believe is bad news. They say they do not believe works can save. Then claim that those who have no works are not saved even though the Bible clearly states;
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Calvinist believe works are a fruit of the Spirit and if you don't have any they can't prove they are saved.
If you've had any experince with JW's you'll find they have many things in common.
MB

Wow, you have no clue, MB.
It seems you have no concept of cause and effect.

A Reformed theology says that God is the cause agent in every person's salvation. God causes the person to go from being dead to being alive (Ephesians 2:1-9). The effect of God's work is the person has faith to believe and repent. The effect of God's gift of faith is for that person to do the good works God has ordained they do (Ephesians 2:10).

Non-reformed teach that man is the cause agent. Man sees God and chooses to have have faith, believe and repent. The effect of this man choosing to believe is that God comes and graciously saves that man. Had the man not caused God to act, God would have never chosen to save that person. The responsibility was all on the man to choose wisely.

 

[1689Dave]

You are arguing against a view not held by me. A strawman argument. Romans 4:5.

You say Christ's blood does not save anyone if any are lost. He died for the elect only, and they have eternal life because of that.

 

[AustinC]

No. You are arguing against your view of general redemption not mine.

Not true. I asked you to define general redemption and I am using your definition. You refuse to accept your own definition and its implications.

Your definition:

What I understand. General redemption is that Christ paid the sin for everyone.

 

[SavedByGrace]

You say Christ's blood does not save anyone if any are lost. He died for the elect only, and they have eternal life because of that.

2 Peter 2:1, is very clear to those whose minds have not been bent by "reformed theology", that Jesus died even for those who will end up in hell!

 

[37818]

by your interpretation, a sinner "believes" because they are "sheep". But for someone to be a "sheep", they first must be saved. so the sinner is first "saved", and then they "believe", and then they are "saved" again!

Jesus is taking to these Jews, who had refused to believe in Him, and therefore were not His sheep! Not the twist of the "reformed"!

Sheep and goats are their final states known beforehand. The sheep are also the ones who abide in the true vine, John 15:6, 1 John 3:4-6. The general redemption being interperted as how everyone is in the Vine.

 

[AustinC]

2 Peter 2:1, is very clear to those whose minds have not been bent by "reformed theology", that Jesus died even for those who will end up in hell!

If Jesus paid for their sins, they cannot justly be in hell.

This passage proves that Jesus did not pay for all the sins of all humanity.

2 Peter 2:1-17

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.

 

[AustinC]

Sheep and goats are their final states known beforehand. The sheep are also the ones who abide in the true vine, John 15:6, 1 John 3:4-6. The general redemption being interperted as how everyone is in the Vine.

John 15 is a dialogue Jesus is having with the 12 disciples in the upper room during the last supper. He is not talking universally to all the unsaved crowds and multitudes. You are amiss if you think this is a general statement to the world. It is a particular statement to his disciples who believe.

 

[MB]

Wow, you have no clue, MB.
It seems you have no concept of cause and effect.

A Reformed theology says that God is the cause agent in every person's salvation. God causes the person to go from being dead to being alive (Ephesians 2:1-9). The effect of God's work is the person has faith to believe and repent. The effect of God's gift of faith is for that person to do the good works God has ordained they do (Ephesians 2:10).

Non-reformed teach that man is the cause agent. Man sees God and chooses to have have faith, believe and repent. The effect of this man choosing to believe is that God comes and graciously saves that man. Had the man not caused God to act, God would have never chosen to save that person. The responsibility was all on the man to choose wisely.

More Calvinist nonsense. Rewriting scripture because you don't believe the truth. Maybe you should actually read what those scriptures actually say. They do not support your position.
MB

 

[MB]

If Jesus paid for their sins, they cannot justly be in hell.

This passage proves that Jesus did not pay for all the sins of all humanity.

2 Peter 2:1-17

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard); then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. Bold and willful, they do not tremble as they blaspheme the glorious ones, whereas angels, though greater in might and power, do not pronounce a blasphemous judgment against them before the Lord. But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed, blaspheming about matters of which they are ignorant, will also be destroyed in their destruction, suffering wrong as the wage for their wrongdoing. They count it pleasure to revel in the daytime. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, while they feast with you. They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children! Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing, but was rebuked for his own transgression; a speechless donkey spoke with human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness. These are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm. For them the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved.

A good description of what Calvinist like you do to scripture underlined above. You bring in nothing but heresies with your tulip.
MB

 

[AustinC]

More Calvinist nonsense. Rewriting scripture because you don't believe the truth. Maybe you should actually read what those scriptures actually say. They do not support your position.
MB

Show me where I change what the Bible actually says. I quote directly from the ESV without changing anything. Therefore, you outright lie when you say I "rewrite scripture." Second, I have read the entire Bible twice over the past 15 months.

MB, your comments are empty.

 

[AustinC]

A good description of what Calvinist like you do to scripture underlined above. You bring in nothing but heresies with your tulip.
MB

My goodness you are a prejudiced person.
I directly quoted scripture and you claim I bring in "tulip."
It's sad how you will not address scripture. I quoted the passage to you. You call my understanding of God's particular choosing...heresy. Yet, you lift up humans upon the pedestal while placing God below humans and then have the audacity to say I am a heretic.
The readers here can see. I leave you to your prejudice.

 

[MB]

Show me where I change what the Bible actually says. I quote directly from the ESV without changing anything. Therefore, you outright lie when you say I "rewrite scripture." Second, I have read the entire Bible twice over the past 15 months.

MB, your comments are empty.

When you claim that man has no choice you have to rewrite scripture with in your self to say that because scripture never says we are saved before faith. We are saved because of our faith and you deny that. This is rewritting scripture. You claim to be elect but scripture never says any Gentile is elect. You apply what is written to the Jews to your self as if you are a Jew and attempt to claim there inheritance for your self. You deny we are invited to come to Christ and try to make it seem we have no choice. You attempt limit God's Salvation instead of responding to the invitation .You accuse us of making the firsst move towards Salvation which is not true and I proved it to you. By this verse: Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
When it comes to the truth of scripture you have failed ,Miserably.
MB

 

[MB]

My goodness you are a prejudiced person.
I directly quoted scripture and you claim I bring in "tulip."
It's sad how you will not address scripture. I quoted the passage to you. You call my understanding of God's particular choosing...heresy. Yet, you lift up humans upon the pedestal while placing God below humans and then have the audacity to say I am a heretic.
The readers here can see. I leave you to your prejudice.

Of course I'm prejudice against false doctrines like yours. I prefer the truth over non-truth
I love God and respect His Word to much to ad or subtract from it as you do. Just for your false doctrines
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

Where does the Bible say only the elect will be saved? I call this writing your own doctrine because that is not in scripture.
MB

ALL elect saved in Christ!

 

[Yeshua1]

Another thread that will be hijacked by those who support the unbiblical teaching know as limited atonement, or particular redemption. Both destroyed by John 3.16

Nope, as actually supported by that verse!

 

[Yeshua1]

Wow, you have no clue, MB.
It seems you have no concept of cause and effect.

A Reformed theology says that God is the cause agent in every person's salvation. God causes the person to go from being dead to being alive (Ephesians 2:1-9). The effect of God's work is the person has faith to believe and repent. The effect of God's gift of faith is for that person to do the good works God has ordained they do (Ephesians 2:10).

Non-reformed teach that man is the cause agent. Man sees God and chooses to have have faith, believe and repent. The effect of this man choosing to believe is that God comes and graciously saves that man. Had the man not caused God to act, God would have never chosen to save that person. The responsibility was all on the man to choose wisely.

Yes, as those holding to us assisting the Lord to save us have made our will and actions the determining factor!

 

[37818]

I am arguing against your definition of general redemption.

The issue is that you refuse to follow your definition to its completion. I can point it out to you, but you refuse to believe it.
It's like pointing out that the clear liquid in the container is battery acid, but because it looks like water the person refuses to believe what is being said. Will the person open that bottle and drink to his death or will that person heed the warning?

The completion in your view, not mine.