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Featured Is repentance an aspect of faith, or is repentance a good work?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Dec 13, 2021.

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  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    They were 'God-fearers': Gentiles who had given up their pagan deities attended the local synagogue and heard the scribes and Pharisees preach. They were entirely ignorant of Christ.
    But since you are such a big fan of Thomas Watson, let's see what he has to say about it all:

    'How is repentance wrought? The manner in which repentance is wrought is:
    1. Partly by the Word.
    'When they heard this, they were pricked in their heart.' The word preached is the engine God uses to effect repentance. It is compared to a hammer and to a fire (Jer. 23:19), the one to break, the other to melt the heart. How great a blessing it is to have the word, which is of such virtue, dispensed! And how hard they who put out the lights of heaven will find it to escape hell!

    2. By the Spirit.
    Ministers are but the pipes and organs. It is the Holy Spirit breathing in them that makes their words effectual. 'While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word' (Acts 10:44). The Spirit in the word illuminates and converts. When the Spirit touches a heart it dissolves with tears. 'I will pour upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace ... and they shall look on Me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn' (Zech. 12:10). It is wonderful to consider what different effects the word has upon men. Some at a sermon are like Jonah: their heart is tender and they let fall tears. Others are no more affected with it than a deaf man with music. Some grow better by the word, others worse. The same earth that causes sweetness in the grape causes bitterness in the wormwood. What is the reason the word works so differently? It is because the Spirit of God carries the word to the conscience of one and not the other. One has received the divine unction and not the other (1 John 2:20). Oh pray that the dew may fall with the manna, that the Spirit may go along with the word. The chariot of ordinances will not carry us to heaven unless the Spirit of God join Himself to this chariot.'
    [Thomas Watson, The Doctrine of Repentance, Chapter 1. Underlining mine]

    Unless the word had come with the converting power of the Spirit to Cornelius and Lydia, they would have rejected it.
     
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  2. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    did you read # 31?
     
  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    As long as you teach dead men repenting before God can make them alive...you will be utterly wrong and not supported by the writers of scripture.
     
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  4. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I have read what you write and everytime you teach repentance before God...
     
  5. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Jesus Christ is wrong? (Mark 1:15; Luke 24:47) The Apostle Peter is wrong? (Acts 2:37-38) The Apostle Paul is wrong? (2 Corinthians 7:10)

    The four Reformed theologians in the video clip are wrong? Thomas Watson is wrong? John Calvin is wrong? A W Pink is wrong? etc, etc,. these must also, according to YOU, teach a works salvation?

    Have you ever thought that YOU must be the one who is WRONG?
     
  6. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I did see it, but I can only reply to one post at a time. It's bedtime in Britain now, but I'll try to reply sometime tomorrow. I don't know why I should though. You barely reply to mine, and when you do, you usually ignore the point.
     
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    “Prevenient Grace” is a term that was used in the Remonstrance, a seventeenth-century document formulated by Jacobus Arminius and others, to protest the Calvinistic soteriology of the Reformers. The term itself simply means “grace that comes before”; but the Remonstrance cast it in terms of the grace of God given to all mankind without exception, which enables all men to respond to God's invitation and believe in the gospel. Whether or not anyone in particular does believe in the gospel, then, is conditioned upon whether he chooses to improve upon the grace which has been given indiscriminately to all. Prevenient grace, therefore, is not irresistible for the elect; it is merely persuasive and enabling, but may freely be accepted or rejected by the arbitrary choice of its subjects. This doctrine of resistible, indiscriminate prevenient grace for all men is held today in many Arminian/Wesleyan theologies and denominations throughout Christianity.

    However, the doctrine of prevenient grace, as it is explained in Arminian theology, finds no support from scripture. It is true, of course, that the regenerating grace of God must come before faith, and so in that sense it is prevenient; however, this biblical prevenient grace goes far beyond the Arminian conception; when God grants his quickening grace to unbelievers, it does not merely give them the option to be alive – it makes them alive (Eph. 2:1-5; Ezek. 37:3-6, 11-14; John 1:11-13, 3:3-8; 5:21; Jam. 1:18; 1 Pet, 1:3; 1 John 5:1); it does not merely grant them the ability to come – it irresistibly draws them all without exception (John 6:37-40, 45; Psalm 65:4 Rom. 9:15); it does not merely make them able to choose good if they improve upon it – it causes them to walk in God's statues (Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 11:19-20; 36:26-27; Jer. 31:33; 32:40). Against the Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace, the bible teaches that there are only two classes of people: those whom the Father has chosen and given to the Son, all of whom without exception will come to him (John 6:37-40, 45); and those whom the Father has not given to the Son, who are not of his sheep, and who therefore cannot believe (John 6:65; 10:26; 12:37-41). There is no room for a third class of people who have been given God's drawing grace but who do not improve upon it. Furthermore, the doctrine of prevenient grace is specifically argued against by the apostle in 1 Cor. 4:7, which asks rhetorically, “Who made you to differ?”. Prevenient grace says that we make ourselves to differ from our unsaved neighbors, by choosing to improve upon the grace that God gave to us all without exception; hence, it is in manifest contradiction to this passage.


    What does the term “prevenient grace” mean, and is it biblical?

    sbw, we differ on what grace means. You have a Wesleyan thought regarding grace, which is ultimately works based.
     
  8. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    What the Puritans did was to take their belief that God is the author of our salvation and apply it through practical means. Hearing the word, hearing sermons, coming under conviction, fearing your standing before God. These are what they thought the work of the Holy Spirit was. What that did was allow them to apply every scriptural command to repent or believe no matter how it was worded and use it in ministry without worrying about possibly getting the philosophical order wrong. They did this on everything - for instance they were completely all in on election and some were into double predestination - yet knowing this they preached honest sermons and warnings to everyone knowing that those truths of God would be handled by Him. They did not fear that they would sin by telling someone they better repent. Some on here who make such a deal about these fine points need to explain why it didn't bother heavyweight Puritan theologians like Watson and Owen when they were preaching - or they need to stop doing this.
     
  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Iain Murray reformed theologian from Scotland and another reformed pastor I know, Rowland Burrows, both think very highly of John Wesley and his theology, as do other reformed scholars.
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Apologies brother I too am from England and it is 00.00 hours now

    I will try to respond more to your comments

    God bless
     
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  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You seem to mistake Arminian Wesleyanism with Reformed theology.
     
  12. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    So did Martyn Lloyd-Jones. "Calvinism without Methodism tends to lead to intellectualism and scholasticism - that is it's peculiar temptation." from "The Puritans" by D.M. Lloyd-Jones.
     
  13. DaveXR650

    DaveXR650 Well-Known Member

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    Edit: Martyn Lloyd-Jones thought highly of the man John Wesley, but thought he was saved in spite of his "muddled and erroneous thinking".
     
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  14. Guido

    Guido Active Member

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    I challenge you to show me one verse in the Bible containing a direct grammatical and semantic signification that repentance from sins leads to salvation from eternal hellfire, whether by literal or figurative words.
     
  15. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    wrong!
     
  16. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Acts 2:37-38

    what do I win? :Cool
     
  17. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO8-fZH2ky8

    ARE THESE ALSO WRONG?
     
  18. atpollard

    atpollard Well-Known Member

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    Come on people, as two Christians you should at least LISTEN to what YOUR BROTHER is saying respond honestly.
     
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  19. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Indeed. There is an unfortunate strain of Hyper-Calvinism among some people on this board which is serving to obscure the case for true Biblical Calvinism.
     
  20. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    God grants repentance, THEN one can recover from the snare of the devil:

    23 But foolish and ignorant questionings refuse, knowing that they gender strifes.
    24 And the Lord`s servant must not strive, but be gentle towards all, apt to teach, forbearing,
    25 in meekness correcting them that oppose themselves; if peradventure God may give them repentance unto the knowledge of the truth,
    26 and they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him unto his will. 2 Tim 2

    Christ did not 'grant repentance unto knowledge of the truth' to the Jews by speaking to them in riddles and dark sayings:

    10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parables.
    11 And he said unto them, Unto you is given the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all things are done in parables:
    12 that seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest haply they should turn again, and it should be forgiven them. Mk 4
     
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