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Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by JonC, May 8, 2022.

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  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    Well, you keep saying “according to Calvinism” and those that hold to the DOG will say “according to scripture”.

    How about we focus on scripture. You mentioned Matthew 11:28 “…come to Me all who are weary and heavy laden…”

    Let me first point out Jesus doesn’t invite “all” to come, only those that are weary and heavy laden. So, Jesus has clearly looked over those that are not weary and heavy laden.

    How do you reconcile Matthew 11:27 “no one knows the Father but the Son and those whoever the Son wills to reveal Him”?

    Doesn’t it seem reasonable to conclude, in context, that those who are weary and heavy laden are the same folks that Jesus has chosen according to His will, to reveal the Father?

    Peace to you
     
    #81 canadyjd, May 9, 2022
    Last edited: May 9, 2022
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    No, of course He was not wrong to have chosen Israel, and to have set His love on Israel, even though a large percentage of them proved unfaithful.

    That is actually a point for anti-Calvinists, BTW. God set His love on an unfaithful nation who largely rejected Him. Only a remnant were faithful.
     
    #82 JonC, May 9, 2022
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  3. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Appealing to "mystery" to reconcile Calvinism and human responsibility, or Calvinism and a God of love, is very misleading.

    The premise that: "A and not-A is true" is not a mystery; it's an antinomy.
     
    #83 George Antonios, May 9, 2022
    Last edited: May 9, 2022
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Nah. The "as many" speaks to a portion of those God loved by sending His Son as being saved. It is impossible to read "the world" in John 3 as meaning anything but the whole world, that is, it is impossible unless you read your theology into the passage.
     
    #84 JonC, May 9, 2022
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  5. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    “Amazing” is an understatement.
     
    #85 Earth Wind and Fire, May 9, 2022
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  6. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Not MacCarther, not Sproll, not Piper. They are all on board with Lordship Salvation.
     
    #86 Earth Wind and Fire, May 9, 2022
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  7. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    John 3:16 has already been limited by John 3:1-15 where Jesus reveals everyone “born again” is born by the will of God Holy Spirit, which is a repeating theme from John 1 that those that are sons of God are born by the will of God and then again in John 10 “My sheep hear My voice and follow Me…” and no one comes to the Father unless he is drawn and of the Pharisees Jesus says,” you do not believe because you are not of My sheep”

    He doesn’t say they are not His sheep because they don’t believe, but rather they don’t believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep.

    peace to you
     
    #87 canadyjd, May 9, 2022
  8. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    The actual teaching of Scripture should be one's presuppositions.
     
    #88 37818, May 9, 2022
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree. There is no reason to take "world" in John to mean anything other than the whole world.

    The Light shines in the darkness. He came to His own, and they did not receive Him. But as many as did have the right to become children of God.

    The "whosoever" in John 3:15 is speaking of whosoever out of the world.

    You are allowing your theology to dictate your interpretation rather than allowing Scripture dictate your belief.

    Oddly enough, Calvinism does not change if you were to take the passage for what it says.
     
    #89 JonC, May 9, 2022
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    It should be, but it isn't.

    Consider past arguments.

    Scripture says Christ died for our sins.

    How is that read? Is it read "Christ died for our sins" or "Christ died instead of us"?

    Scripture says "we esteemed Him stricken". How is that read - "we esteemed Him stricken" or "He was stricken by God"?

    In both cases Scripture has been altered to support presupposed ideas.

    Same with "world" in John 3:16 and "whole world" in 1 John 2:2. Calvinists change the meaning to "the elect of the world" - NOT because Scripture dictates the meaning but because such a change support their theology.
     
    #90 JonC, May 9, 2022
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 20:28.
     
    #91 37818, May 9, 2022
  12. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    No, no, no, no, no. This is a strawman argument.
     
    #92 Reformed1689, May 9, 2022
  13. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    MacArthur publically championed it in the late 80s- early 90s and received great deals of pushback from other Calvinists. I recently heard him talk about the divide. Many Calvinists see it as a works based Salvation. The submission into complete repentance is viewed as a work.
     
    #93 Reynolds, May 9, 2022
  14. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Right when the proper way to look at it is this is the evidence of salvation. The response every true Christian gives to their salvation.
     
    #94 Reformed1689, May 9, 2022
  15. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    he is trying to understand his issues from the perspective as a human would, but not as God does!
     
    #95 JesusFan, May 9, 2022
  16. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    main concerns that I have is with the reasoning"if jesus not Lord over all, then is Lord over None", and also the truth that seem might start to waver and fall due to seeing works based performance as their security for salvation, and not the Lord Jesus Himself!
     
    #96 JesusFan, May 9, 2022
  17. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    How can we ever have real security if issue is how much is Jesus our Lord, if he is not Lord over all per them, probably not even saved?
     
    #97 JesusFan, May 9, 2022
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I allow scripture, and scripture alone, to dictate my theology. Any suggestion otherwise is a false statement.

    The “whosoever” out of the world is defined and limited by John 1 (the sons of God.are born by the will of God) John 3 (those that are born again are born by the will of God Holy Spirit) John 10 (no one comes unless they are drawn, My sheep hear My voice and follow Me)

    Concerning the “light shines in the darkness”, those that “practice the truth” (notice the focus is not on belief) come to the light so that their deeds (the truth practiced) are revealed to be “wrought in God” (God is the source of the truthful deeds being practiced)

    So those that practice truth, come to the light and are given the right to be children of God, do so by the Power of God.

    peace to you
     
    #98 canadyjd, May 9, 2022
  19. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Seems that some who take we Calvinists to task for
    refining words". end up doing very same things themselves!
     
    #99 JesusFan, May 9, 2022
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  20. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    OK… I’m again it
     
    #100 Earth Wind and Fire, May 9, 2022
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