A little "end time" confusion (Who is leaving?)

huh???????

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And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire
was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; - Rev 8:8

 

"This morning the preacher was preaching about money. (new building campaign coming up)"

First clue, this is not the Holy Spirit speaking through this man.

 

Just as I wrote: 'true then; true now.' In fact, true ever since then. There were horrendous massacres of Jews (hugely more than 3,000) in AD 136, at the start of the 1st Crusade and, of course, during the Second World War. If the Arabs ever get at them, there will be another.

As a matter of fact, convulsions notwithstanding, the time between the Emperors Augustus and Marcus Aurelius (c. BC 30-AD 180) is referred to by historians as the Pax Romana, a time of unparalelled peace throughout the Roman World which (under God) enabled the Gospel to be spread throughout the Empire.

Steve

 

According to Acts 2:20-21, that great and notable day, you say armageddon, occurs before salvation. The logical conclusion to your belief that the notable day is an endtime battle is that we cannot yet be saved by calling upon the name of Jesus. "And it will come to pass" is a key phrase in this passage. It reveals a cause & effect relationship within the text. If you believe that this day is "armageddon" & that you were saved by calling out to Christ, then your beliefs are in conflict; according to the chronological context of these verses.

 

I love reading historical books too. But I do not accord them the authority that you seem to. In this period of "unparallelled peace" Rome itself was in the grip of a Civil War and a very messy fight for the reigns of empire. And the fierce fighting in various parts - just as Jesus foretold - puts the lie to this being a period of peace, even comparatively.

As far as I am considered we are not getting anywhere here in this discussion. We disagree, which is OK.

 

huh?????
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These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy:
and have power over waters to turn them to blood
and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will. Rev 11:6

 

According to your post #117, you believe "that great and notable day of the Lord" is Armageddon. If you are not understanding the relationship between salvation & that great and notable day, perhaps you should ask the Spirit for guidance.

 

And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent:
and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great. Rev 16:16,20,21

Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa 13:6
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate Isa 13:9
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries Jer 46:10
For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. Isa 34:8
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. [Har Megiddo] Joel 4:13
For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen [Gentiles]: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. Oba 1:15

 

If you are not even going to attempt to defend your theology in light of Acts 2:20-21, then this discussion is dying from lack of intelligent discourse & rebuttal.

 

Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Isa 13:6
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate Isa 13:9
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries Jer 46:10
For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, [and] the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. Isa 34:8
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. [Har Megiddo] Joel 4:13
For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen [Gentiles]: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. Oba 1:15
Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger. Zep 2:3

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Acts 20:20-21 Paul speaking:

What's your point???

 

Hello Iconoclast, while not a dispensationalist, I am not aware of any dispensationalist that believes that Matthew 24 describes the Rapture, or, catching away.

You give two options of belief here, "dispy," and...everyone else, I reckon.

There are multiple views concerning the timing of the Rapture (and before anyone gives me a lesson on the original, I use this term because it is the most highly recognized when discussing this event), and those that will go through the Tribulation, as well as those that will enter the Millennial Kingdom.

While my time is certainly limited this evening, I have been granted a reprieve from picking up furniture, so just wanted to jump in here, sorry it is the middle.

I am familiar with those who could be called dispensational, and none that I know of would make a mistake such as placing the events described in Matthew 24 as being the Rapture itself.

Most view this as events describing the future event of the Tribulation.

The separation of those there are between the righteous (that stay) and the wicked (that perish). At this time, The Kingdom promised to Israel will begin, thus fulfilling the promise of God, as Israel at this time partakes of the New Covenant. Because all that have "not known God and obeyed the Gospel will have perished, the saying "thus shall all Israel be saved" will be fulfilled.

I am one that believes that the Rapture will take place before these events.

I will look through a little more of this thread to see if I can find something to respond to.

God bless.

 

I am on the road now...will offer some documentation....I have heard it preached before.....maybe not all teach it.....I still have some of these books.
Forgot when i was home to look up the sources...I will get it eventually.

 

I give up. If you are unwilling to discuss the context of the actual verses in question, then I am just wasting my time.

 

This is a question that must be answered in order not to miss an important truth in scripture.

One answered well, but it was dismissed, so I will just give something for you to consider concerning the First Resurrection.

First, when we see the First Resurrection spoken of...


Revelation 20

1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


...we will notice some interesting points.

1-Satan is bound for a 100 years. While this might be considered an "undetermined length of time" by some, I ask that we be shown in scripture where a specific time is given and it also is taken to mean something other than what is means.

2-Satan is released after a specific amount of time.

3-Clearly the "souls" of v. 4 are Tribulation martyrs, as the phrase "them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" tells us not that they are, but no-one other than those who died according to these exact specifications are mentioned.

We see a few things we can consider:

A-they were Killed for the witness of Jesus Christ, clearly placing these individuals after the Cross of Christ.

B-they had not worshipped the beast, clearly placing them within the period that "the beast" is upon the earth. And while "the beast" is spiritualized by some, Revelation places his entrance within the Tribulation period.

C-They had not received his mark. I have seen some great commentary stating this to mean that this speaks of evil deeds of the mind (forehead) and evils acts (hands), but, when we consider that Revelation places these events in a specific time period, rather than a spiritualized hodge-podge leaving interpretation to unending possibilities, I tend to reject that. All prophecy has been fulfilled in a manner in which specific events took place, rather than a general spiritualized fulfillment.

D-these are resurrected.


4-This is said to be the First Resurrection.

Says it right there, right? This is the first one, so that ends it.

Not quite.

The first thing to consider (no pun intended) about this is the word first, for obvious reasons.

Let's look at a few uses of this word (see link to see Strong's def and biblical usage):



Matthew 20:27

King James Version (KJV)

27And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:


First, we can see that this word can refer to a headship, as this verse, I think, carries the meaning of several verses where Christ speaks of the first and the last.




Mark 14:12

King James Version (KJV)

12And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?



Are we to take this as scriptural evidence that Israel did not, in reality, celebrate the "First" day of unleavened bread until this particular year?

A rigid interpretation would demand this, right? If we forget that we are dealing with a book in which that which is taught must not contradict itself.



And one more example, and my favorite:




Hebrews 8:7

King James Version (KJV)

7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


Those that have studied Hebrews will know that the insertion of covenant is justified, for that is what is referred to here, without doubting.

They will also know that what the First Covenant refers to is the Covenant of Law, or, the Mosaic Covenant.

Was that indeed the first covenant? No, but it was the First Covenant.

The member that gave verses referring to the Rapture was indeed correct.

The First Resurrection speaks of the resurrection of the just, of those that are saved.

By the time we get to the First Resurrection of Revelation 20, we can see two that take place before this particular resurrection, leading one to conclude that First is a reference to the type, not the timing, of this resurrection.

The first event of resurrection is of course the Rapture, which I firmly believe will take place before the Tribulation period.

This is a debatable position, of course, and I love my post-trib brothers, but, I believe they are wrong, sorry.

The second recorded resurrection that takes place we see here:



Revelation 11:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

They are resurrected, and ascend unto heaven. Kind of like how the Rapture is described...isn't it?

Insistence that the resurrection must take place on the last day does not preclude that the reference spoke of an age. A pre-trib Rapture will accomodate a resurrection at the end of the age we are presently in, a post-trib resurrection the end of the Tribulation, and a resurrection at the end of the Millennial Kingdom at the end of another age.

So when this:



1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

King James Version (KJV)


14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


...is offered as an example of the First Resurrection, don't be so hasty to dismiss the notion. We see that resurrection is the subject at hand, however, we see nothing concerning martyrs, nor is this group secluded to membership of those who have died for Christ's sake.

The first resurrection describes the glorification of the saints, independant of timing.

Only those that have received Christ in this life will partake of the First Resurrection.

Those that reject Christ will suffer the second death. Also descriptive of something...eternal separation from God.

Okay, submitted for consideration.

God bless.

 

Hey...you're not reading while driving...are you? lol

Be careful, okay. It can wait, and it is New year's Eve...possibly the most dangerous day of the year to be on the road. I will pray for you.

God bless.

 

When i drive...I listen to www.sermonaudio sermons....in Iowa now sitting too long at the truckstop in walcott,lol time to find western nebraska, before i post again....probably north platte.....going to oregon-washingtomn this week....lol...only read a little while driving...haha....not!

 

Spent part of my childhood in Central Point Oregon (born in Cali...don't hold that against me...lol)...still my childhood home.

I envy you the chance to see so much, though I do not envy you your job...I hate traveling...lol.

Be safe,

God bless.

 

Either you are sadly mistaken agedman or the Bible is.

When Jesus Christ was the cross said I thirst. and My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? was he speaking in His human nature or His divine nature?

As for the total and unchangeable nature of the Triune Godhead consider:

Deuteronomy 6:4.
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Mark 12:29
And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

Scripture teaches that each person in the Godhead has a somewhat different role in God's purpose in Salvation. The Covenant of Grace puts it as follows:

1. God the Father before the foundation of the world chose some unto salvation in Jesus Christ [Ephesians 1:4].

2. God the Son agrees to humble Himself, take upon Himself the form of man, and die on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of those whom the Father has chosen to salvation so that none are lost [John 17; Philippians 2:6-10].

3. God the Holy Spirit agrees to apply the work of the Son to those chosen by God the Father by the regeneration and effectual calling of those whom God the Father has chosen unto salvation [John 6: 37, 44; Ephesians 2:1-10].

But to make one person in the Godhead inferior to another denies the teaching of Scripture. God through the Apostle Paul speaks of Jesus Christ as follows:

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

 

Darrel C

I am familiar with Revelation 20.

Jesus Christ is the first and only bodily resurrection to date. Those who have part in that First resurrection, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, are those who are redeemed through His cross work! And Revelation 20:6 tells us:

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,

Now isn't that true of all the Saints?

 

Matthew 27

50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.