The Sabbath- a much misunderstood Bible Text

Well I don't know if it was abolished or not. I do know that I have studied the issue and haven't had any conviction from the Holy Spirit to observe the Sabbath as the Hebrews did nor as a Saturday. I don't call Sunday the Sabbath either, it is the Lord's Day according to scripture and is the day I choose to rest and worship. But that would be a Sabbath I guess.

I just think Sabbath Keepers are laying some false hope in that they will receive something special for observing the Sabbath and that those who don't will receive some punishment. I think that is silly and that it is not proper interpretation of the scriptures. Just my opinion, like i said, the Holy Spirit hasn't convicted me to do such and I am wide open for any chasening from the Lord. I invite it.

God Bless!

 

When you read the quote from Moody above - does it appear to you that he is arguing that the 4th commandment "might have been abolished"??

If not - how is it that you say you agree with him?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Sounds like "Abolished" to me.

(You know what they say -- "looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...")

When you read about the New Earth in Rev 21 are you "convicted" that the saints will be there?

When you read about the New Earth in Isaiah 66 and see "in the text" that "From Sabbath to Sabbath ALL mankind will come before Me to worship" -- are you thinking "yes - everyone of mankind except the saints"??

When Christ said "The Sabbath WAS made for Mankindn" Mark 2:27 -- do you think to yourself "Well - not really!".

How have you been able get around these texts?

In the quote from Moody - he applies the obligations (the full force of God's Word regarding the 4th commandment) to Sunday, even calling it some people's Sabbath.

You apparently do not agree that the 4th commandment can be "edited" so that it points to Sunday as "The Sabbath".

At least we both agree on that.

But then - this puts you 100% opposed to ALL of Moody's points.

I agree with the points he makes as quoted above - but I do not agree that the 4th commandment is open for "edit" so that it can point to Sunday.

You appear to agree with me on that last point but not on the part where I DO agree with Moody!

So this leaves you opposed to Moody on BOTH counts does it not?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I guess it does. So then I retract my "Amen" for Moody.

God Bless!

 

In that case - you are being consistent. I think that is also the case with almost everyone who has posted against Christ the Creator's Holy Day of Gen 2:3. Certainly there is no doubt about the fact of a difference of opinion on this topic - but my point is that there is an entire group of Sunday-Sabbath Christians represented by D.L. Moody's teaching - who argue FOR the Ten Commandments (and edit the 4th) making statements that are being opposed by those here who deny the role of God's Law entirely.

Given that "deny-it-all" approach - what about Romans 2?

Is Paul arguing for a "better basis" for rebellion against God's Law? Is his point that in order to disregard God's Law and successfully "get by with it - one must have a better doctrinal argument against the law of God -- one that does not try to uphold it in word only to reject it in deed as do the Jews?

Who then is this "successful" gentile who litrally keeps the law but is not circumised literally in the flesh? How are they doing that? Is it "Real" obedience? Lip service like the Jews? Complete rejection of God's LAw as their form of "keeping" the law about adultery?

In Christ,

Bob

 

I believe he is arguing that they are not saved by trusting in the law and that they need God to circumcise their hearts through Jesus Christ. I think you are reaching beyond the passage's message.

God Bless!

 

Lets look at the "details".

#1. Paul lists individual commandments -- Adultery, stealing, idolatry... This can not be denied.

#2. Paul argues that the UNCIRCUMCISED Gentiles are in some cases OBEYING and the JEWS are in some cases in rebellion to these SPECIFIC commandments taken from the UNIT OF TEN.

This can not be denied as we read the verses quoted above.

#3. Paul argues that TRUE circumcision will be seen in the PRACTICE not simply in LIP SERVICE and he appeals to the SUCCESSFUL example of "some" gentiles. He claims that these SUCCEEDING examples show TRUE circumcision "of the HEART" done by the Holy Spirit.

These "details" are devastating to the POV that the LAW can only be violated not obeyed!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ok, so how does this promote Sabbath keeping as a "must do or else" as the SDA church preaches?

God Bless!

 

I am simply pointing out that a "deny-it-all" approach when it comes to God's Law does not work in Romans 2.

In that Chapter Paul argues the case about rebellion against God's Law and shows how God is blasphemed among non-believers because of the hypocracy of His people claiming to honor His Word and His commands and yet living as if it is ok to transgress His Word.

Paul then points out that among non-Jews CAN be found some who actually DO honor God's commands and that THEY are counted as SPIRITUAL Jews!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ok brother Bob, (and by the way...I like your mannerism in dealing with everyone and me personally...you seem very Spirit filled) , just what do you believe about the Sabbath? Do you believe that those who keep it are going to recieve something special? Do you believe those who do not are going to recieve some punishment? Just why should I keep the Sabbath? And please don't say "just because God said too" because I am not so sure that He said that those in Christ should, but don't go off into that point, just lay it all out for the Christian who does not keep the Sabbath. What does Ellen say and you believe Ellen right?

God Bless!

 

Steaver -

If keeping ANY of God's Word - ANY of God's Commandments is not based on God's authority then it is pointless to keep it. I hope we can all agree on that foundation point.

Lets take a point where you and I "might" agree - Idol worship is "bad". In that case the idolatry practiced by the RCC is "bad" it is "Wrong" it is "sin". But I don't believe all Catholics are going to hell for that. I believe that many of them would DENY that God's WILL is really IN HIS commandment EVEN though it READS as it does. And I am sure they have some story to go with that "Belief". Wouldn't you agree?

Does the Error of the RCC change God's Word? Does it void His command? "To him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin"

Should we just "leave them at it"??

God is not just setting arbitrary limits to chop off toes whenever we cross the line. His commands are "BLESSINGS" they BENEFIT mankind. If we ignore them - we not only sin - but we deny ourselves the freedom and the benefit of the blessing in obedience.

They are saddled with purgatory, praying to the dead, confusion over Mary vs God (worshipping at Mary's altars) etc

All for nothing.

In Christ,

Bob

[ July 02, 2005, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Our RC friends could be "Set free" by the truth regarding idolatry.

So the "Truth shall set you free" also applies to Christ the Creator's own Holy Day - that HE made Holy in Gen 2:3 at Creation "week" (a 7 day week not a 6 day week).

Why should we be saddled with worshipping God as "Creator" every week??

How many Sabbath keeping Christian churches accept evolutionism? How many of them have a problem with members being confused that maybe all they need is an hour in church plus a day in the shopping mall. How many Christians churches that reject evolutionism embrace the gay agenda?

Another example of the "day MADE for mankind" I have experienced is regarding school and work. I always had the joy of knowing that I must not study for class on Sabbath and that I must not drag my work into the 24 hours of Sabbath! Sure I could do so "IF I feel like it" but how often does heavy work pressure, yard-pressure, family-project pressure or an urgent school deadline push that "I don't feel like working on Sabbath" excuse right out the window!!

Sabbath was "MADE" for mankind!

Given before the fall.

In Rev 14 we see the final judgment based in the Sabbath "The everlasting Gospel goes forward declaring the HOUR of His judgment has come - WORSHIP Him who MADE the heavens and the earth..." (quoting the Sabbath commandment in Rev 14 as part of earth's final warning message).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Steave -- I too appreciate your spirit in this. We both have nothing to lose if the conversation stays to the point of "What does the Bible say". A consistent reading of scripture is a benefit to both of us no matter what our background may say about it.

As for Ellen White - I do accept her writings as inspired but I never refer to them in a doctrinal discussion because doctrine should always be based "sola scriptura".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Genesis 2 1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

God's final act of creation was to bless, and sanctify, the seventh day. We are not only told that God blessed, and sanctified this day, but also why He did so. It was because He rested from all of the work of creation. At the end of the sixth day, God saw all that He had created, and pronounced it very good ( Gen 1: 31 ). The last thing created, before God created the Holy day, was man. Man was to have dominian over all the earth, which God had just created. Before God gave over the dominian of the earth to man, He first spent a day of rest with man, contemplating the creation. Certainly, one who was just created, would need to become acquainted with his creator, and the works of His creation. This was why the day was established, that man might continually be reminded every seventh day, that God was the creator of all, including himself.

On the first day, God said let there be light, there was light, and there still is. He divided the day from the night, and they still are. On the second day, God made our atmosphere, and separated it from the heavens, and it still is. On the third day, God separated the waters from the dry land, and created all plant life. The waters and land are still separate, and the earth is full of plant life to this day. On the fourth day, God made the Sun, Moon, And the stars. They are still here today. On the fifth day, God made the creatures of the waters, and the fowl of the skies. They are still here today. On the sixth day, God created the creatures of the earth, and mankind. We are still here today. On the seventh day, God rested, and blessed and sanctified the seventh day. The seventh day is still a holy day today. It is just as established, as the rest of the things which God created in the first seven days of this world. Nothing, and no one, can change that, but God alone.

Psalm 33 4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

It took only a very short time after the fall for humanity to forget not only the Sabbath, but even God himself. This in no way changed the status of the day blessed and sanctified by God. The realities of the standards, or laws which God has established, in both the physical, and spiritual realms, is not effected by what humanity chooses to believe, or not believe. We are the ones effected by what we choose to believe, not reality. God is reality. He is, always has been, and always will be. Apart from Him there is nothing. Those who choose of their own free will, not to live in accordance with the reality of the standards, and laws which God has established, are choosing to be nothing.

Colossians 1 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

There is nothing apart from God. He is the creator, and sustainer of all. Although we have been given the freedom by Him to exist apart from his will, in this short life, the end result will be non existance. The present world that we live in, would not be in the situation it is in, if God did not allow this freedom to all His created beings. There was first, one in heaven who chose to exist outside of reality. He brought this mind set to earth with him, and spread it's influence to our progenitors, with their willing cooperation. Thus the present dilemma.

Exodus 20 8 [/i]Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy[/i] . 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

It is not possible to remember something that never existed. God’s command to remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, is proof positive that the day existed, and was to be kept holy prior to the time this command was given. This time was at creation, when the day was blessed and sanctified by God. Moreover, by Christ, who is the Creator. What other purpose could there be for making a period of time holy, than for that time to be observed as such? To suggest that it wasn’t, is nonsense.

Matthew 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What part of the above verses is to hard to understand? The Creator, when he was here in the flesh, said that the law will not change in any way. Not until heaven and earth pass. The law He is referring to is the commandments.

Matthew 24 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Speaking about the end of time, Christ says, to pray that you will not have to flee in the winter, or on the Sabbath day. Do you really think that Christ didn’t know that the Sabbath wouldn’t matter any more at the end of time? To the contrary, He knew that it would be an important issue to His true followers at the end of time. For this reason, He admonishes His servants to pray that they will not have to flee on the Sabbath day, knowing that the day we choose as our Sabbath, will be a crucial issue at the time of the end.

Joel 3 9Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up: 10Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong. 11Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD. 12Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about. 13Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the vats overflow; for their wickedness is great. 14Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision. 15The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining. 16The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. 17So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Before the Lord returns, there will be a gathering together of the gentiles preparing for war. The message that prepares them for war, is a message from God. It is a message that will bring the entire world into the valley of decision. The Lord is near in the valley of decision. When all have heard this message, and made their decision in regards to it, then the harvests of the world will be ripe, and the sickle will be put into action. The harvests must be ripe before they are reaped. The Lord Jesus Christ spoke of these harvests.

Matthew 13 24Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. -------------------------
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Again, before the Lord Jesus Christ returns, the harvests will be ripe, and ready to be reaped. This will take place during one generation. So that the whole world will have made their decision, and therefore Christ will return. For the gospel must be preached in all the world, and then the end shall come.( Matt. 24:14)

Revelation 14 6And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, 7Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. 8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. 14And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The three angels messages of the above verses are the message from God that will bring all the world to the valley of decision. They are part of the everlasting gospel, which Christ said must be preached unto all the world, and then the end shall come. The first angel calls all back to worship the one who created the world. It states exactly what the fourth commandment does, that God is the creator. It is calling all back to worship God on the day that He blessed and sanctified at creation, for this very purpose.
The second angel warns the world about the fall of Babylon, and calls all of God's people out of her ranks. She is that great city, that is Rome. She is none other than the church of Rome, and all those apostate Christians, and religions of the world that will join her ranks in rebellion against God.
The third angel warns everyone not receive the mark of the beast. Probably the most stern warning in all the scriptures. Those who receive the mark of the beast, are those who choose the day of worship put forth by the MOTHER OF HARLOTS, that is, the Church of Rome, over the day of worship that God Himself has ordained. This day they claim as a mark, or sign of their power in the earth. This is the message that will divide the world into the two harvests to be reaped. God's day, representing faith in Him, or Rome’s day, representing faith in man. There will be no in between. Choose you this day, whom you will serve.
The difference, between those who worship the beast, and those who don’t, is the keeping of the commandments of God. That is, those who don’t worship the beast, keep the fourth commandment. Those who do, do not keep the fourth commandment, but obey the beast rather than God, by observing the false day of worship created by the Church of Rome.
After this decision has been made by all, the angels which Christ spoke of in the book of Matthew, will be sent forth to reap the two harvests of the world. These two days are not just days, they represent two different systems of worship. The one, the true worship of God, by faith in His word alone. The other, representing a system of partial worship of God, with partial worship of man. By faith in some of God's word, and some of mans traditions. The only faith that saves, is faith in the Son of God alone, who is Himself, the WORD of God. Thus it is not okay, to just choose any day we want. The more so, the nearer His coming approaches, and the more this message is given. Thus I have given it to you. What you do with it, is not my responsibility, only the giving of the message.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

God's final act of creation was to bless, and sanctify, the seventh day. We are not only told that God blessed, and sanctified this day, but also why He did so. It was because He rested from all of the work of creation. At the end of the sixth day, God saw all that He had created, and pronounced it very good ( Gen 1: 31 ). The last thing created, before God created the Holy day, was man. Man was to have dominian over all the earth, which God had just created. Before God gave over the dominian of the earth to man, He first spent a day of rest with man, contemplating the creation. Certainly, one who was just created, would need to become acquainted with his creator, and the works of His creation. This was why the day was established, that man might continually be reminded every seventh day, that God was the creator of all, including himself.
</font>[/QUOTE]This is a very good point. God gives us the "everlasting Gospel" in Rev 14:6-8 and tells us that part of it involves our choice to obey - to worship 'Him who created the heavens and the earth and ...' (Quote from the Sabbath Commandment).

Mankind is to be visual and experientially reminded every Sabbath of Christ the Creator's role as God and Creator -- not just Savior.

In Christ,

Bob

 

It strikes me that the Lord's Prayer is very similar to the purpose of Sabbath in reminding us of our choice for loyalty, worship and honor to God as our Creator.

"God is IN Heaven - His name is Holy. WE vote/choose/request that HIS KINGDOM come to earth - His WILL be done on earth -- just as it is in heaven".

How much MORE significant that prayer and sign of loyalty is now after the fall than even before since as Christ said to Pilate "My Kingdom IS NOT of this World".

After the fall - the recognition of the Creator's Sabbath AND the Lord's Prayer form a kind of "statement of revolt" against the god of this world!!

And well it should be since "THINE IS the Kingdom AND the Power and the Glory forever"!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Here is where you always lose me. In my mind "inspired writings" means "God said". Am I thinking wrong here? We had this discussion before, whether or not Ellen is just an inspired preacher ( that breaks down into opinion, comparing what she preached with scripture) or are her writings inspired (she wrote as the Holy Spirit spoke to her, thus delivering new revelation of the Word of God to us) ?

God Bless!

 

This is a good question - but if you think about what was going on in 1Cor 14 where there were many prophets but none writing scripture you will see how one can have the gift of prophecy without also being a Bible writer.

All Bible writers are inspired - but not all inspired (as in God breathed) writers are writing scripture. We are told in the OT that Nathan was not only a prophet but was also writing the chronicles of David. Yet none of his writings continue today.

We know he is a true prophet from the account of his confrontation with David and also David's request to him regarding the building of the Temple.

We know that in the NT not only were there many prophets at Corinth - but also Philip had four daughters that were prophetesses and Agabus was a prophet along with Simeon etc.

So again - all Bible writers are inspired - but not all inspired writers/prophets are authors of scripture.

God alone determines the purpose of the message HE gives.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob, what those prophets said in the scriptures was considered "inspired" and is why they were recorded as scripture. That is why they are part of the Word of God today and it is why we declare them prophets. Because the Word itself says they were.

So determining whether or not Ellen's writings were inspired has nothing to do with these others you mention from scripture because they are part of scripture, thus making them inspired.

So what declares Ellen's writings inspired? And if you believe they were then why not use her writings along side of the "scripture" to determine doctrine?

God Bless!

 

That is a very DIFFERENT question.

The first question you asked was - given that you accept Ellen White as inspired WHY would you claim that she is not writing scripture. And so I gave examples of prophets in scripture that are inspired but NOT authors of scripture. (Or at least that is what I thought you were asking)

NOW you are asking how I would know that Ellen White is inspired. The Bible gives a "Set" of tests for a prophet to know if they are genuine or not. I follow that set of rules - that list to determine if someone truly has the real gift of prophecy listed in 1Cor 12.

The first point is that God Himself is in absolute control of the means and the information communicated.

Other tests include the following --

TESTS

1John 4:2 Must confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
1John 4:6 Must agree with the Apostles, NT prophets - Bible authors, 1Cor 14:32
Isaiah 8:20 Must agree with God's Word - His Law and Testimony
Deut 18:10-22 Must be 100% accurate in predictions
Deut 13:1-3 Call us to Worship God alone - teach no false doctrine
Matt 7:16 Fruit of Holy Spirit - not criminals/wicked/ - their work does not lead away from God/Bible/Gospel
Gal 1:6-8 Preach only ONE Gospel (defined in 1Cor 15:1-7) - do not contradict the ONE Gospel or else cursed.
2Cor 11:4,13 Will not preach a "different Gospel" - else they are false apostles.
Rev 22:18-19 Must not add to - or take away from any book of scripture

So -- when we find Ellen White claiming that God showed her the future or the past or claims that God made some kind of doctrinal statement - we have these texts to guide us in testing each one of those claims.

In Christ,

Bob