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The use of Nekros in Ephesians 2:1

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by SovereignGrace, Apr 16, 2017.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    One would think that after hundreds (maybe thousands) of posts ping-ponging back and forth since 2001 here at the BB that this C vs. A controversy is not going to be resolved.

    HankD
     
    #121 HankD, Apr 18, 2017
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    No, Hank's a self confessed mugwump (nowhere near as bad as a semi-pelagian). :)
     
    #122 kyredneck, Apr 18, 2017
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The part where I disagreed before was (and is) in this illustration. It is not that man cannot understand, see, smell, taste and feel. It is that man cannot understand the gospel for what it is because apart from the Spirit we do not understand spiritual things (the spiritual aspects of the things we do understand).

    The problem with the analogy some use of corpses (physical corpses) is that Jesus himself put on humanity. Jesus was as much natural man as you and I, yet without sin. I wonder if some even realize their ideas on this topic either nullifies the idea Jesus was truly human or deny that he was God. His existence was one of faithful obedience to the Father, even unto the death of a cross. Our fallenness is not an issue of substance, but a matter of the will. It is not an issue of understanding knowledge in a different way, but of having the Spirit of God dwelling in us. It's a matter of being not in the flesh but the Spirit, of dying to the flesh and living to God. The Spirit, not regenerated man, reveals all Truth.

    I simply believe that some have taken a biblical concept and turned it into an illustration only to build doctrine off that illustration. In the end, what they have is a false allegory held as doctrine because it supports other teachings they believe to be true (and which may, in fact, be true).
     
    #123 JonC, Apr 18, 2017
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The problem is not resolving the controversy, it's already resolved. The problem is getting people here just to admit I'm right. :Laugh
     
    #124 JonC, Apr 18, 2017
  5. pinoybaptist

    pinoybaptist Active Member
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    Jon C said: A corpse cannot do anything to his benefit, this is true. But a corpse also cannot sin.

    Dead IN sin is not the same as being dead TO sin.
    The unregenerate is DEAD IN SIN.
    The quickened is DEAD TO SIN.
     
    #125 pinoybaptist, Apr 18, 2017
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  6. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OH! :D

    HankD
     
    #126 HankD, Apr 18, 2017
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree. My objection was the use of a physical corpse to describe what Scripture refers to as being "dead in sin and trespasses, objects of God's wrath". Those dead in sin are not there passively. They are not like corpses, unable to do anything. They actively reject the Light, implying a knowledge of but refusal to embrace what is there.

    You see, brother, I believe that Jesus is both the Life and the Light that makes men alive (hence Paul's words "alive in Christ"). So I do not believe that we are born as a spiritual corpse, needing to be made a spiritual living being so that we can then choose God. I believe we are made alive in Christ, not to get there.
     
    #127 JonC, Apr 18, 2017
  8. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    You can't be born as a spiritual corpse. You just are a spiritual corpse.

    Whittling, we get down to the fact that we all agree that before Christ animates our spirit, we are spiritually dead in our trespasses and sins. Cleary you visualize that status of death differently, but we all agree that the spirit is dead in trespasses and sins. Only God, and God alone, can animate a dead spirit.
     
    #128 MennoSota, Apr 18, 2017
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  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member
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    Guys, PLEASE take into consideration I am only 4 years removed from semi-Pelagianism with ZERO seminary background. Its gonna take me some time to grasp things.
     
    #129 SovereignGrace, Apr 18, 2017
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    If you want a whittled down version of my position, it is that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. I think you supposed my argument otherwise, but never argued against the idea we could no more effect out own salvation than one who is dead can give himself life. My argument was against statements which went further as to imply God makes the dead alive so they can be saved. And the reason I objected was that such a position is nothing but a humanistic fiction because that Life given is salvation itself.
     
    #130 JonC, Apr 18, 2017
  11. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    This doesn't answer my question...Please give Book, Chapter, Verse of anyone who will not have ears to hear/eyes to see and detail the audience being addressed/who is receiving that judgment as well as context. thank you!
     
    #131 JonShaff, Apr 18, 2017
  12. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Then we agree, You ascribed the Lord Jesus' Words (those without ears to hear) to Everyone when the context is really idolatrous Israel, correct?
     
    #132 JonShaff, Apr 18, 2017
  13. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I don't think so, brother. I'm addressing the "Who" of Isaiah's passage as well as Matthew's--The passages you are taking out context.
     
    #133 JonShaff, Apr 18, 2017
  14. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    I never read that argument into anyone's posts, but I can see why you had a red flag rising to the top of the flag pole, if that concept had been argued.
    I completely agree with "the idea we could no more effect out own salvation than one who is dead can give himself life."
    I don't think SG disagrees with that idea either, but I will let him speak for himself.
    The person I can see disagreeing with this is @JonShaff.
     
    #134 MennoSota, Apr 18, 2017
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Those who are spiritual dead though cannot understand the things in the Bible in a saving sense, as they read it, but have not the mind/heart able to receive it to save themselves!
     
    #135 Yeshua1, Apr 18, 2017
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    the scriptures do say that God has to produce inus the new heart and open our minds to receive the Gospel message though in order to get saved!
     
    #136 Yeshua1, Apr 18, 2017
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Spiritually dead people can know about God, can read the bible, listen to sermons, but they will never freely decide to receive Jesus as Lord, as naturl state of a sinner is rebellion against God!
     
    #137 Yeshua1, Apr 18, 2017
  18. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Awesome, great points...got some scripture that lines up with those details?
     
    #138 JonShaff, Apr 18, 2017
  19. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    God makes us alive, we cannot in and of ourselves make ourselves alive.

    We are made alive after belief/trust/faith, we are not made alive so we can believe.
     
    #139 JonShaff, Apr 18, 2017
  20. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    @JonShaff, you are making the argument that you, yourself, make yourself alive when you believe. You cancel out your first statement when you pronounce your second statement.
    One cannot believe until one is made alive by God. No spiritually dead person ever believed first and then became spiritually alive. @JonC, @Sovereign Grace and myself have all come to agreement on this issue. Why do you insist on your willful choice coming before your spirit is made alive in Christ?
     
    #140 MennoSota, Apr 18, 2017
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