1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Is There a Crisis of the Conscience of the Church in Relation to the Poor?

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Steven Yeadon, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Now, I know I semi-quoted Ronald Sider, who is a Christian Leftist. I don't agree with his theology, but he has made one good point in a book he wrote: "The Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience." Before going on, even Christian cults, which to me include the Roman Catholic Church, can be right on at least one doctrine or insight. Even though I hate the Christian Left's perspective.

    That said, are we making a terrible mistake in most churches by not going almost all out in touting the need for giving to the hard-working poor here at home and the totally impoverished overseas? I do not include those that can work but choose not to, because the bible tells us not to even feed such people (2 Thessalonians 3:10).

    This issue is very near and dear to me, and I have wanted to find a way to volunteer in a way that encourages people to give more. The reason I quoted Ronald Sider is because he argues that if American Christians were to contribute a true tithe to the poor and their churches, then we would almost wipe out absolute poverty, poverty so bad it can lead to death. All while paying for running our churches and bank rolling missions with billions of dollars. (What Is Absolute Poverty? - Definition, Causes & Examples - Video & Lesson Transcript | Study.com)

    Of course, we cannot eliminate poverty for Jesus himself said we will always have the poor among us (John 12:8, Mark 14:7, Matthew 26:11). However as the bible makes clear we can do the work of God in helping the impoverished (2 Corinthians 8:13-15 among many others). We can even do so in a way that future generations will marvel at with just 10% of our income going to missions, the poor and needy, and running our churches.

    The so called "scandal" or "crisis" for evangelicals and baptists as well is that the vast majority of churchgoers don't tithe and in fact give well below the tithe. (American Donor Trends - Barna Group)
     
    #1 Steven Yeadon, Nov 14, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  2. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1) Believers are not to tithe, but to give from the heart of the bounty God has given them.

    2) The believer is to express love, not obligation in their giving, for where the heart is will be found the treasure, too.

    3) The “scandal” of the assembly is the mixed multitude that think they can make some righteous appeal through use of worldly enticement.

    4) Christ telling Peter “feed my sheep” did not include feeding the belly.

    I am not opposed to ministry to those in need. What I am opposed is considering it other than as one area of the many that should grab the attention in which the assembly should support.
     
  3. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To me, that sounds as if it is a condemnation of the vast majority of those in the assembly who give like the Pharisees did, out of the excess they had. I do understand that there is no New Testament tithe, but as I have been taught, there is the issue that a tithe is the least we can do. When we live in an Age where the Law has grown to address the issues of the heart instead of just the body.

    I mean where are most people's treasure? Is it in their home? Their cars? Their entertainment? Why is it not in heaven? Now, I must be careful as I do like my belongings a little too much at times, and must not be a hypocrite. But I have worked hard to make myself cheery in giving.

    What I am trying to address I should say is the problem of cold love or lukewarm love when it comes to giving. I am actually trying to call to repentance many in the Assembly, I now see. I now see I should not use a trick to entice people to do the right thing with a wrong heart, but must address the heart of the matter:

    The heart of the matter seems to be that many in the assembly store up treasure on earth and die to leave it behind, whereas the attitude should be that they die to finally inherit the treasures they had loved most all along. Many of our Brethren die everyday absolute paupers like Lazarus was. If we care at all for the "least of these" and have any notion of the fear of the Lord that should come from what happened to the rich man, then we must grow to be cheerful givers investing in a world to come. We must not at all be like the world around us who only has this world to enjoy before an eternity in hell.
     
  4. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree.


    But understand, giving out of obligation is not a display of love and gratitude to the Savior, it is dishonorable.

    I have long been unimpressed with bricks and mortar, or what goes on by the typical assembled group within that structure.

    How much less is the God of all creation, that knows the hearts?
     
  5. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This statement jars me a little. I must ask where the evidence of this is in the bible?
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2002
    Messages:
    42,006
    Likes Received:
    1,492
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. - 2 Corinthians 9:7
     
  7. Steven Yeadon

    Steven Yeadon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2017
    Messages:
    2,391
    Likes Received:
    315
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wow, I mis-remembered that verse, thank you very much.

    I would also point out that this verse and its wider segment speak to the need to work on our hearts in or order to eventually be a cheerful giver and thus richly supplied with God's abundance. Because God gives abundantly to the generous according to this biblical segment. It lays out a standard to aspire to while also telling us to not give out of impure motive. It actually reinforces the conversation so far in this thread.

    2 Corinthians 9:6-15:

    6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8 And God is able to bless you abundantly, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9 As it is written:

    “They have freely scattered their gifts to the poor;
    their righteousness endures forever.”9:9 Psalm 112:9

    10 Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11 You will be enriched in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.

    12 This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of the Lord’s people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13 Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, others will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14 And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15 Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!
     
  8. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,998
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In other words you just don't do anything about it.
     
  9. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 John 3:17 But whoever has the world's goods, and beholds his brother in need and closes his heart against him, how does the love of God abide in him?

    HankD
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  10. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2013
    Messages:
    4,998
    Likes Received:
    210
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I agree. Do you support efforts to help the needy? How about providing them with medical care and food?
     
  11. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,497
    Likes Received:
    3,568
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, I do believe there is a crisis of the conscience when it comes to the church and the poor. Sometimes the church seems to look to the Kingdom that is coming while ignoring the kingdom that now is.

    But I suggest the problem is less on the church having “a gospel with feet” and more the reason it is feetless. Too often our (myself included) hearts are set on earthly things and earthly concerns.
     
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes to all inquiries.

    HankD
     
  13. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    An interesting (to me) headline stated that a vast majority of the U.S. has not paid off LAST years Christmas, and is going to go further in debt this year.

    I have no problem to giving to the needy.

    What I have a problem is giving to those who squander. Would take with no regard to actually improving themselves and becoming a guide for others to improve themselves, too.

    Would it not be good for the assembly to open a pantry or cooperate with a pantry that also demanded that those who drew from the pantry attend classes on budgeting and prioritizing their wealth?
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,497
    Likes Received:
    3,568
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Certainly teaching men to fish is more beneficial than throwing fish in their direction. It also causes the church to truly engage people with the message of Christ.
     
Loading...