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Pope Clueless...

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by steaver, Dec 7, 2017.

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  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    #1 steaver, Dec 7, 2017
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    #2 Earth Wind and Fire, Dec 10, 2017
  3. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I thought maybe our Catholic friends here would jump in and explain why the Pope is right.
     
    #3 steaver, Dec 11, 2017
  4. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Also, he dislikes the translation of the Lord's Prayer that says lead us not into temptation. He says that that just doesn't sound right.

    Matthew 6:13 King James Version (KJV)

    13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
     
    #4 church mouse guy, Dec 11, 2017
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  5. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    He actually was silent on it being the capital of Israel. He said the following:

    “Jerusalem is a unique city,” he said, “sacred to Jews, Christians and Muslims, where the Holy Places for the respective religions are venerated, and it has a special vocation to peace.”

    Is that not true my brother?

    In especially strong language, the pope added, “I pray to the Lord that such identity be preserved and strengthened for the benefit of the Holy Land, the Middle East and the entire world, and that wisdom and prudence prevail, to avoid adding new elements of tension in a world already shaken and scarred by many cruel conflicts.”

    This sounds like he wants to avoid more tension in the world, no? So please tell me where he specifically and succinctly states that Jerusalem is not Israel's capital. The Pope is not an ignorant man and surely he knows how the Jewish nation sees Jerusalem.
     
    #5 Adonia, Dec 12, 2017
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  6. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Do you think that the Pope is a Peronist? Some Latino communist dissidents call him Papa Che--Che translates to something like "dude"--Papa meaning pope. Do you think that the pope should explain where he stands on the murder of Alberto Nissman?
     
    #6 church mouse guy, Dec 13, 2017
  7. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    But would the Lord lead us into temptation?

    Williams translation: and do not let us be subjected to tempations
    Gods Word Translation: Don't allow us to be tempted. Instead, rescue us from the evil one.
     
    #7 Salty, Dec 13, 2017
  8. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Pope Francis leans left and there is no doubt about that - he is a Jesuit after all. He is also stirring things up in regards to divorced people who do not have annulments receiving Holy Communion.
     
    #8 Adonia, Dec 13, 2017
  9. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Thank you! Did you see the news where he challenged the wording of the Lord's Prayer?
     
    #9 church mouse guy, Dec 13, 2017
  10. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    So is the KJV wrong?
     
    #10 church mouse guy, Dec 13, 2017
  11. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Do you believe that the Lord leads us into temptation?
     
    #11 Salty, Dec 13, 2017
  12. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    I am not the issue. The issue is did Tyndale or whoever translated that part of the KJV get it correct. By the way, I myself heard this dispute over 60 years ago so maybe Rome has always been the source of this issue.
     
    #12 church mouse guy, Dec 13, 2017
  13. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    As to the first part, Jerusalem belongs to whoever has it. The Jews lost it to Rome. The caliphates conquered it. The the Latin Kingdom had it. Then the Ottomans took it and lost it to the British. Then Israel and Jordan had it. Then Israel had it.

    I really don't care who has it. While it may be holy to Judaism, Islam and Catholicism and Orthodoxy, it has no particular claim on my faith. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre has a better claim to being the site of Christ's tomb than the Garden Tomb, but it really doesn't matter to me which — or neither — is correct. I don't do pilgrimages and believe that the only holy ground is that upon which we fall on our knees before God. I am bemused by all the so-called "Evangelicals" (including Baptists) who make "pilgrimages' to the "Holy Land" in imitation of the Latin Rite folks.

    As to the pope's concern about where the capital is — he's just playing the diplomatic game he's expected to. Can't we all just get along? Not in Jerusalem. Too much history, too much passion. Most of it irrational, but there it is. Sometimes you need to remember that rationality has little to do with human interaction.

    Now, as to "lead us into temptation" — Wilbur Pickering, a modern defender of the Traditional Text of the New Testament (but not a KJV-only guy) renders Matthew 6:13 as "And do not bring us into testing, but rescue us from the evil one." Something to think about.
     
    #13 rsr, Dec 13, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
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  14. Reynolds

    Reynolds Well-Known Member
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    Sometimes it does not do the best job conveying original thought.
     
    #14 Reynolds, Dec 13, 2017
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  15. Adonia

    Adonia Well-Known Member
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    Very well said!
     
    #15 Adonia, Dec 14, 2017
  16. church mouse guy

    church mouse guy Well-Known Member
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    Right, it is technically a dynamic equivalent, I think, but I don't think that there is an error in the KJV so I disagree with Pope Francis. Some idioms are exclusive to the particular language and cannot be translated literally and make sense. For example, I remember when I first learned that Spanish said that a guy was very elbow for what we would say in English that he was very tight (that may have been slang but you get the idea, no?)
     
    #16 church mouse guy, Dec 14, 2017
  17. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Half true. Please explain how Jerusalem has a special vocation to peace?

    "In especially strong language"

    Do you revere the especially strong language of our Lord Jesus Christ (which btw, for the sake of peace I presume, the pope left out the Lord's name) when He said,

    "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law". (Matt 10:34-35)

    Maybe the pope should learn from "pope" Peter how peace should be preached. Then maybe some Jewish and Muslim souls could be saved before it's too late when the Lord Jesus Christ returns to Jerusalem and destroys all for their unbelief...

    "The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all.
    That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
    How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
    And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
    Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
    Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
    And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
    To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
    While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
    And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
    Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
    And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10)

    Does the pope know...

    "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape." (1 Thess 5)

    Do you know this?

    Yes, the pope wants to avoid tension in the world, he is a coward for Jesus Christ. Do you see how the Apostles for Jesus Christ preached Jesus Christ the only way to God causing immense tensions in every community? They all suffered greatly even unto death to warn all that faith in Jesus Christ was the only peace offered between man and God.
     
    #17 steaver, Dec 15, 2017
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