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WARNINGS NOT TO DEPART THE FAITH (HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39)

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 3rdAngel, Sep 17, 2019.

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  1. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    It is God's Word from GENESIS TO REVELATION (not mine) that says salvation can be lost if we do not "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD" present tense *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39; HEBREWS 3:14; HEBREWS 10:38; HEBREWS 12:25-27; 2 PETER 2:20; HEBREWS 3:6-8; HEBREWS 2:3; COLOSSIANS 1:23; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1. God's salvation and promises are all "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word. If we are not "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING GOD'S WORD (present tense) we have no salvation and God's promises do not apply because by not believing and following God's Word we are "UNBELIEVERS" no unbelievers enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    God never loses any of His children. His children are defined in His Word as those who "BELIEVE and FOLLOW" God's Word *JOHN 3:15-21; JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27. Those who are not God's children do not "BELIEVE and FOLLOW" God's Word. Sin is the differnece between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10. God's "SALVATION and PROMISES" are "CONDITIONAL" and are for those who "BELIEVE and FOLLOW his Word. We can choose to yeild to temptation or not yeild to temptation by walking in the Spirit *GALATIANS 5:16. It is only those who "ENDURE" temptation to the "END", BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word the receieve everlasting life *JAMES 1:12.

    PSALMS 65:4 is in reference to those who "BELEIVE AND FOLLOW" God's Word.

    True and even this requires a change of heart through God's Spirit *HEBREWS 8:10-12 as we "BELIEVE AND FOLLOW" God's Word *JOHN 3:15-21.

    v18, For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but to us which are saved it is the power of God.

    The preaching of the cross is the preaching of God's Word. Those who "BELIEVE and FOLLOW" God's Word know the power of God which is salvation from sin. The counterfeit is the form of godliness that denies God's power to save us from our sins *2 TIMOTHY 3:5

    Indeed, but we are free to choose to believe or not believe his word everytime temptation is brought to us. Only those who "BELIEVE" God's Word and draws neigh to God and resists the devil will God give power to follow His Word. *JAMES 4:7-8; 1 CORINTHIANS 10:13. Only those who endure temptation to the end "BELEIVING AND FOLLOWING" God's Word receive everlasting life *JAMES 1:12.

    Rubbish! No one has ever said man performs certain actions. God's WORD not mine says salvation and God's promises from GENESIS to REVELATION is "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING" God's Word * JOHN 3:15-21; MATTHEW 7:24-26. Please stop making things up no one has ever said or believes.
     
    #141 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
  2. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    No need I wrote it and know what it says. You however do not understand the scriptures provided with this quote. Perhaps you need to read them again carefully. The rest of this part of the quote that you conveniently snipped out goes like this..

    No one has said that salvation depends on men to bring it to come to pass so please do not pretend that they have. Our part is to choose this day who we will believe and follow. Do we believe and follow God's Word or do we choose not to believe and follow *JOSHUA 24:14-15; PHILEMON 1:14; 1 CORINTHIANS 7:37; DEUTERONOMY 30:19; JOHN 3:15-21. God's Word does not teach that we are robots with no free will. That is simply not biblical. Now what is it that you do not believe?

    No! It is God's Word not mine that says that our part is the choose to believe or not believe and that we are not robots with no free will not me. Our part is to choose to believe or not believe God's Word. This is a daily battle in which a "BELIEVER" fights the good fight of faith. We have to fight the good fight of faith to lay hold of eternal life * 1 TIMOTHY 6:12

    No! We cannot save ourselves but as can ask God to save us by choosing to BELIEVE and FOLLOW Gods' WORD just like the gospels teach about the lame, the dead, the blind. They could not heal themselves from their sickness but they choose to "BELIEVE" God's Word and their faith made them whole. This was Gods' Work in them as they "BELIEVED and FOLLOWED" Gods' Word and why JESUS says "They that be whole need not a physician but those who are sick but go you and learn what that means, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." *MATTHEW 9:12-13 Many do not know the meaning do you? We are the blind, the lame, the sick, the deaf and the dead in trespasses and sins. We have the sickness of sin and are dead. We cannot heal ourselves and make ourselves better from our sickness or can we rise to walk in newness of life. This is God's work in all those who "BELIEVE" His Word. Our part is to choose to BELIEVE or NOT BELIEVE. These are God's Word not mine *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27; MATTHEW 7:24 ;JOSHUA 24:14-15; PHILEMON 1:14; 1 CORINTHIANS 7:37; DEUTERONOMY 30:19; JOHN 3:15-21.

    Already answered in the previous section. It is not our work but God's work in all those who BELIEVE God's Word.

    Hope this helps
     
    #142 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
  3. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Then the person who does not have "saving faith" is not saved, are they?
    Then they never really were believers, were they?
    For someone to have something that does not endure, means they never really had the kind of faith that endures.
    There is only one kind of faith...The kind that endures.

    All other kinds of "faith" are not really the true faith, once delivered to the saints ( Jude 1:3 ).
     
    #143 Dave G, Sep 21, 2019
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  4. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Your condradicting yourself...

    Your response...
    Then you write....
    You seem confused. It seems you do not know if you agree or disagree. I suggest you take a breath and slowly read the scriptures provided and only shared in love and as a help to you. * PHILEMON 1:14; 1 CORINTHIANS 7:37; DEUTERONOMY 30:19; JOSHUA 24:14-15; JOHN 3:15-21.

    According to God's Word (not mine), from GENESIS to REVELATION, salvation and God's promises are all conditional on believing and following God's Word * EPHESIANS 4:30; 1 THESSALONIANS 5:19; HEBREWS 3:17; PSALMS 95:10-11; HEBREWS 3:10-11; PSALMS 119:158; GENESIS 6:5-7; ISAIAH 59:2. Those who no longer choose to believe and follow God's Word have become "UNBELIEVERS" *HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39.

    Sorry my friend seems God's Word disagrees with you. This is posted and only sent in love and as a help for you. May you receive it in the Spirit that it was given (Love). Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

    Hope this helps.
     
    #144 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  5. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Not in the least.

    To me, you seem confused that God could actually save someone without giving them the choice.
    He does that all the time.;)

    Romans 8:29-30.
     
    #145 Dave G, Sep 21, 2019
  6. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Nope seems you are confused. I posted your own words contradicting what you were saying. They were your words not mine. If you wre not confused why did you post contradictory statements saying you believe then you do not believe in relation to the same topic of discussion?
     
    #146 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
  7. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No, it does not.

    The believer believes because it is given by God to believe ( Philippians 1:29 ).
    The believer follows Christ because they are one of Christ's sheep ( John 10:27 ).

    They don't do those things to gain salvation, but because they already have it. :)
     
    #147 Dave G, Sep 21, 2019
  8. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Not really. HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 from God's Word show that we can have saving faith one day and lose it the next if we do not endure temptation and continue "BELIEVING and FOLLOWING God's Word. These are God's Word not mine and you deny them.

    Hope this helps.
     
    #148 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  9. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Your response...
    Kind of but not quite right. No one does these things to gain salvation they gain salvation by believing and following God's Word. It is given by God to believe through His Word. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God *ROMANS 10:17.
    Your mixed up here Dave. Those who are God's Sheep are God's Sheep because they believe and follow God's Word *JOHN 10:1-10; JOHN 10:26-27.

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him and it is to these he gives eternal life *JOHN 10:28. Notice here who it is that God gives "ETERNAL LIFE"? Yep those who "BELEIVE and FOLLOW God's WORD!

    Can you see your error here?
     
    #149 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    So am I to understand that God's sheep (John 10:27) can become by their own selves become goats (Matthew 25:41)? But you still did not give an answer of your understanding of that meaning of ". . . never perish . . . , in John 10:28 of those who remain sheep (John 15:6).

    It is my understanding by reason Christ died for all men (1 John 2:2) everyone is in the vine (John 15:1-6). That, as you say, believe and follow God's word remain in the vine (1 John 3:6). Those who do not, never knew God (John 17:3).
     
    #150 37818, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  11. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    We are not literally sheep and we are not literally goats to begin with. These are symbolic terms given of two groups of those who are believers and those who are not. The sheep represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word and the goat are those who do not believe and follow God's word. We are all goats to begin with (symbolically) before we come to Christ or if we depart the faith no longer believing and following God's *JOHN 10:26; HEBREWS 6:4-8; HEBREWS 10:26-39. The same as we are not really wheat or tares these are also symbolic of those who believe and follow and those who do not.

    Hope this is helpful.
     
    #151 3rdAngel, Sep 21, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  12. mailmandan

    mailmandan Active Member

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    Amen! In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9). *We need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. :Thumbsup

    The reference to "the blood of the covenant that sanctified him" in verse 29 "on the surface" appears to be referring to a believer/Christian, but this overlooks the fact that the word translated "sanctified" (which is the verb form of the adjective "holy") which means "set apart," and doesn't necessarily refer to salvation. *In 1 Corinthians 7:14, Paul uses it to specifically refer to non-Christians who are "sanctified" or "set apart" by their believing spouse. (And by this Paul does not mean that they are saved). A non-Christian can be "set apart" from other non-Christians without experiencing salvation as Paul explained here.

    So the word "sanctified" means to be "set apart." If the word "sanctified" simply meant "saved," then you would have to say that the seventh day was saved (Genesis 2:3), the tabernacle was saved (Exodus 29:43), all the firstborn in Israel, both man and beast were saved (Numbers 3:13), the Lord was saved (Leviticus 22:32), the gold was saved (Matthew 23:17), the Father saved the Son (John 10:36) and many other things that do not line up with scripture.

    *If the word 'sanctified' in Hebrews 10:29 is used to describe saved people who "lost their salvation," then we have a contradiction in scripture because the writer of Hebrews in verse 10 said "sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all" (Hebrews 10:10) and in verse 14, we read, "perfected for all time those who are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14)

    So I understand this hypothetical person to be "sanctified" or "set apart" as an active participant in the Hebrew Christian community of believers, yet ends up renouncing his identification with these other believers and tramples under foot the work and the person of Christ himself, which gives evidence that his identification with these believers was only superficial and that he was not a genuine believer.

    *In verse 39, the writer of Hebrews sets up the CONTRAST that makes it clear to me that he was referring to unbelievers, not saved people: But WE are not OF THOSE who draw back to perdition, but OF THOSE who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition. :)
     
    #152 mailmandan, Sep 22, 2019
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  13. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Let's talk about the elephant in the room that no one against the OP is discussing or has addressed which is God's word regardless of our opinions...

    Of course willful sin is deliberate intention to sin. These were believers that departed the faith. They had drawn back to a life on known unrepentant willful sin. That is why the scriptures say they had fallen away from the faith. They had drawn back to a life on known unrepentant willful sin and chose instead to reject God's Word.

    Your error is in thinking that HEBREWS 6:4-8 and also HEBREWS 10:26-39 were not "ONCE BELIEVERS who had "FALL AWAY" and "DRAWN BACK" to depart the faith. As shown from the scriptures word for word in God's Word alone. These people are described as...

    HEBREWS 6:4-8 ...
    1. They were once enlightened; HEBREWS 6:4
    2. They tasted of the Heavenly gift; HEBREWS 6:4
    3. They were made partakers of the Holy Ghost; HEBREWS 6:4
    4. They tasted of the good Word of God; HEBREWS 6:5
    5. They tasted of the power of the world to come
    6. THEY (BELIEVERS) FALL AWAY; HEBREWS 6:6
    7. THEY (BELIEVERS) renew themselves to repentance; HEBREWS 6:6
    8. THEY (BELIEVERS) by their sins crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame; HEBREWS 6:6

    Then in HEBREWS 10:26-39 we have more "WARNINGS" to "BELIEVERS" and "CONSEQUENCES" of departing the faith ...

    1. IF WE (BELIEVERS) return back to a life of known unrepentant SIN; HEBREWS 10:26
    2. WE (BELIEVERS) being those who have received a knowledge of the truth; HEBREWS 10:26
    3. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive the judgments of God; HEBREWS 10:27
    4. WE (BELIEVERS) will receive a greater punishment for returning to a life of known unrepentant sin because we have receved a knowledge of the truth and turned away from it; HEBREWS 10:29
    5. WE (BELIEVERS) by returning back to known unrepentant sin after we receive a knowledge of the truth we count the blood of the covenant an UNHOLY thing and do despite to the Spirit of Grace; HEBREWS 10:29
    6. WE (BELIEVERS) are warned not to CAST AWAY our confidence which has great reward; HEBREWS 10:35
    7. WE (BELIEVERS) receive God's promise after we do God's will; HEBREWS 10:36
    8. WE (BELIEVERS) are WARNED NOT TO DRAW BACK INTO UNBELIEF; HEBREWS 10:38

    These are "WARNINGS" from God's Word and it is God's Word alone that says that these people were "ONCE BELIEVERS" that departed the faith to return to a life of known unrepentant sin showing indeed that someone who was "ONCE A BELIEVER" can lose their salvation. God's salvation and all of God's promises are always "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word in the "PRESENT TENSE" *JOHN 3:15-21. If we do not believe and follow God's Word we come under "CONDEMNATION" because salvation is by faith in God's Word *JOHN 3:18.

    This is different to PROVERBS 24:16 which is talking about a "RIGHTEOUSS MAN" not an "UNRIGHTEOUSS MAN" which is being spoken of in HEBREWS 6:4-8 and HEBREWS 10:26-39 who has "FALLEN AWAY" and has "DRAWN BACK" by rejecting the faith to live a life of known "UNREPENTANT SIN"

    Sorry my friend there is no such thing as "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" this is a false gospel and one that has its origin from the father of lies first preached to Eve in the Garden of Eden *GENESIS 3:1-5. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it.

    Salvation is "CONDITIONAL" on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word. If you do not believe and follow God's Word to the end than you do not have salvation *HEBREWS 3:14; HEBREWS 10:38; HEBREWS 12:25-27; 2 PETER 2:20; HEBREWS 3:6-8; HEBREWS 2:3; COLOSSIANS 1:23; JAMES 1:12; MATTHEW 24:13; MARK 13:13; 2 THESSALONIANS 2:1-3; 1 TIMOTHY 4:1.

    Ignoring God's Word does not make it dissappear.

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him *JOHN 10:26-27.
     
    #153 3rdAngel, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
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  14. loDebar

    loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Heb 6 is not as you suppose and you have been told

    If a believer sins, we may expect punishment for sin, not condemnation,
    Fellowship may be broken, but sonship remains

    A father does not disown a son because of coming home late
     
    #154 loDebar, Sep 22, 2019
  15. 3rdAngel

    3rdAngel Member

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    Then you should be able to address the post and the scriptures above your post that disagree with you, in post # 153 linked. If you cannot why do you not believe the scriptures provided that show that those who were "ONCE BELIEVERS" had "FALLEN AWAY" and DEPARTED THE FAITH to return to a life on known unrepentant willful sin? They are God's Word brother not mine so your argument is with God not me. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it. From GENESIS to REVELATION God's Word teaches that both receiving salvation and God's promises are all "CONDITIONAL" on "BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING" God's Word. "ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED" is a false teaching that leads many away from believing and following God's Word.

    God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word of God) and follow him.
     
    #155 3rdAngel, Sep 22, 2019
  16. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    MMRRPP ! WRONG !

    if one KNOWS something is sinful, one should not do it !

    COMMON SENSE !
     
    #156 robycop3, Sep 22, 2019
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  17. robycop3

    robycop3 Well-Known Member
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    We ALL still sin, but we DON'T abandon our faith, nor DELIBERATELY sin. That's what the Heb. 6 verses condemn.
     
    #157 robycop3, Sep 22, 2019
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  18. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    No they do not.

    Salvation is by grace, not of works ( Ephesians 2:8-9 ).
    No one gains it by doing anything...it is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ).

    Believers do good works, because they are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works.
    God has ordained that we should walk in them ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
    Believers do not walk in them to gain His favor, but because they already have His favor.

    God's favor cannot be gained by doing something...He is not a respecter of persons.
    Eternal life is a gift that cannot be purchased by any means.:oops:

    It is His gift to give.
    Again, I think it is you who are mixed up.

    A person does not believe, because they are not one of Christ's sheep ( John 10:26 )...which means the opposite is also true.
    We believe, because we are ordained to eternal life ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ), and because God chose us and caused us to approach Him ( Psalms 65:4 ).

    God acts in mercy and kindness towards a sinner, and the sinner then re-acts to His power and grace...not the other way around.

    That is what makes it all of grace, and none of works.;)
    I agree.

    But I think you have the "motive" wrong.
    To me, you appear to see that man has to do something in order to "release" God's grace.

    If this were true, then God's favor is only going to be bestowed to someone who "does all the right things".

    Election is what takes all of that, and throws it into the garbage can...no one comes to God by their own efforts.;)
    Otherwise, we could take credit for doing something to gain His favor.

    The Lord destroys all of that type of thinking and acting, by deciding who to save...not us.:Thumbsup
    Notice here who He gives that life to:

    " as thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him." ( John 17:2 ).

    Jesus Christ gives eternal life, which is to know God and His Son ( John 17:3 ), only to those whom the Father has given to the Son.
    No man can come to the Son, unless it has been given by the Father to do so ( John 6:65 ).

    Therefore, man is totally passive with respect to salvation.

    Our walk in this life rests in His eternal promises to save us and to grant us eternal life.
    We do good works, obey Him and call upon His name because we are saved...not to gain salvation.

    We believe, because He first dragged us up out of the mire of our own sin and deadness, and gave to us a new heart.:)
    Can you see your error?

    Can you see that what you are teaching, makes God dependent upon men in order to save someone?
    From where I'm sitting, you're basically telling me that God has to wait on men to "accept Him", given the right circumstances...instead of God deciding to save someone completely independent of their actions.

    True grace is when God bestows a gift upon someone without them even realizing they have it ( Romans 10:20 ).:Cool
     
    #158 Dave G, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  19. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    I'm not denying them...

    I'm disagreeing with your usage of them.
    As I see it, you are misunderstanding them.

    Respectfully, they are still God's words, whether or not you comprehend them.
    Faith comes to who?
    Everyone that hears?

    If faith comes to all those who hear the word of God, then why does everyone who hears it, not have faith ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2, see Acts of the Apostles 17:22-34 as an example )?

    Free will?

    God's word answers the question ( Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-11, John 3:19-20 ).
    Man's will isn't free and unbiased.

    It is against God.

    So, with man's will being against God, how does a person come to God unless He causes it ( Psalms 65:4 )?
    Here's the answer:

    " He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God." ( John 8:47 )

    A person has to be "of God" in order to "hear" ( Matthew 11:15 ) His words.
    Otherwise, they cannot "hear" it, spiritually.
    Ultimately, we as men have a "heart problem" that must first be dealt with, before we can truly approach Him.:Thumbsup

    This is why God had to open Lydia's heart, so that she "attended" ( listened intently ) to Paul's words, given to him by God:

    " And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."     ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ).
     
    #159 Dave G, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  20. Dave G

    Dave G Well-Known Member

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    Loss of salvation is a false teaching that leads people to believe that their efforts are what saves them...
    Not Christ's finished work on the cross for them.

    It places them back on the "treadmill" of always wondering if their efforts are "good enough" in God's eyes, and their perseverance is what ultimately saves them.
    In other words, they don't persevere in the faith because they are saved, but in order to gain salvation...which is not Scriptural, nor does it glorify God alone for salvation.

    In other words, their salvation rests on a combination of God's grace and man's efforts, which violates Romans 4:5, Romans 11:5-6 and Ephesians 2:9.
    That mixes works ( man's efforts ) and grace ( God's efforts ), which pollutes God's holy work of salvation.

    We as sinful men do not give God a "helping hand" when it comes to the gift of eternal life.


    This is my last reply in this thread.


    May God be pleased to reveal His grace and mercy to you through His precious word, as He has to me.:)
     
    #160 Dave G, Sep 22, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
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